John O’Leary: Victim or Victor - You Decide

Every so often, I meet someone whose story actually resets my perspective. And that’s exactly what happened in a recent interview on my podcast Rounding the Bases, when I was joined by a guest who shared more than a few lessons on creating a legacy that lasts. 

His name is John O’Leary. At just nine years old, a simple act of childhood curiosity led to an explosion that left him with burns on 100% of his body. Statistically, he wasn’t supposed to survive the night. But in the defiance of every expectation, the fire that should have marked the end of his story ignited an extraordinary journey. 

Today, John is a beloved keynote speaker, bestselling author and the inspiration behind the motion picture Soul on Fire. His story is one of renewal, and turning something that most would view as a tragedy into a platform of hope, gratitude and purpose. 

It was one of the most impactful interviews I have had on the podcast, rich in lessons that were as practical as they were profound. But the messages carried a single, unifying theme: That creating a legacy is built one action at a time. 

Every time we have the courage to choose compassion, to turn pain into possibility or to see setbacks of moments of significance, we take a small step toward writing a story. And it’s bigger than something created only to be left behind, becoming who you actually are. 

SINGLE: Agency over experience

When tragedy strikes, how we respond in the aftermath becomes a series of defining moments. For John O’Leary, it was a question of survival, but that doesn’t mean any of it came easy. 

In the early days after the explosion, John’s body was broken and his pain unimaginable. He kept asking ‘Why me?’ as any one would. But the response he received from his father one night changed his life forever. 

“John, why not you?” his father posed in return. “This terrible thing has happened, and if you want to spend the rest of your life as a victim to it, have at it. No on will blame you. Or you can choose to be the victor. You can choose to rise up and use it for good, and in every room . . . you walk into people will look up at in awe, at what you’ve overcome and how you lead your life.” 

That space between what happens to us and how we deal with it is the place where creating a legacy begins. One of my favorite topics to explore on Rounding the Bases is how rarely life or careers go as planned. But no matter what comes our way, we always have the agency to decide: victim or victor. 

John’s choice to live became the foundation of his legacy. Not in the sense that he continued to exist, but he decided to truly be alive. It was a decision bigger than what happened to him. It was about the courage in his response, and it’s a lesson that holds true for everyone. 

DOUBLE: planting seeds through service

If service is the most important thing a person can do, John O’Leary embraces it as a slogan and a strategy. 

After years of healing and reflection, John realized that the pain he endured as a child prepared him for a life of giving back to others. The first time he shared his story, it was to a small group of Girl Scouts, but soon grew to stages around the world. Each time, the message was never about the burns. It was about helping others see their own potential. 

Service is how we multiply our impact. When we use our experiences - yes, even our wounds - to lift up those around us, we plant seeds that grow beyond our sight. They might look like words of encouragement to a friend or showing compassion to someone who feels unseen. 

“All the things we touch today, Joel, aren’t about glorifying us,” John said to me. “It’s drawing people in to realize . . . the work you do, the kindness you offer others can save a life. And it might be yours you save.” 

Creating a legacy has nothing to do with wealth or status. It’s in the ripple effect of small acts of service, done with great love, and the number of people who are made better because we chose to show up. 

TRIPLE: meaning in the memories

Creating a legacy requires reflection. Something that stood out to me from my interview with John was how often he speaks about the importance of remembering, not to dwell on the past but to draw wisdom from it. 

He could have easily buried his memories of the trauma. Instead, he revisited them with purpose, asking: How can I use this experience to help someone else? John actively works to reframe memories as teachers, creating a legacy of turning pain into perspective. 

“I just feel so blessed to have survived the fire when I was nine, to have found beauty in the scars when I was in my late 20s, to find this career that I’m living now,” he shared. “I’m blown away by all of it. And I’m grateful.” 

Each of us carries memories of setbacks and triumphs. Too often, we treat them like anchors when they could be compasses. When we can use even the broken parts of our story to help others find meaning in theirs, the memory itself isn’t what endures. The meaning behind it does. 

HOME RUN: daily courage

When people see John O’Leary on stage, full of energy and joy, it’s easy to assume that it’s something that just comes naturally. But he will be the first to tell you it actually that it takes a courage he only gained through daily practice. 

“I’m an introvert,” he shared, before likening his decision to become a speaker to a baseball player walking up to the plate, facing the demon and swinging anyway. “To say yes, that first time, was radical.” 

John didn’t wake up one day suddenly healed or confident. Instead, he chose to say yes when fear told him to say no, and to show up authentically, even when he felt inadequate. And he did so thousands of times. 

That’s what creating a legacy is all about. Not in a single defining moment, but by consistently showing up to live and love in the moments that make up our days. 

You don’t have to survive a fire to ignite your own soul. You just have to choose to learn from your past and live with courage today. Because in the end, creating a legacy isn’t what people remember about you. It’s what people experience through you. And it starts right now, one decision at a time. 

Listen to the full interview here or tune in to Rounding the Bases every Tuesday, available wherever you get your podcasts.

LEARN MORE ABOUT creating a leagcy FROM JOEL 

Book Joel Goldberg for your next corporate event. He draws on over 30 years of experience as a sports broadcaster. In addition, he brings unique perspectives and lessons learned from some of the world’s most successful organizations. Whatever your profession, Joel is the keynote speaker who can help your team achieve a championship state of mind.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Joel Goldberg 0:00

Welcome back, everyone to another episode of Rounding the Bases presented by Community America Credit Union: Invested in You. Shout out to my friends at Chief of Staff Kansas City. And you don't have to be in Kansas City. You could be in St. Louis, like my guest, anywhere around the country. But if you're in the search for a job, looking to hire someone or just a good resource, I do so much with Chief of Staff here in town, a lot of events and culture, and they're just they're great people. They care. So if you're interested, check them out. Chiefofstaffkc.com. Making Connections That Matter. I believe that my guest today had been introduced to me a couple of times, most recently through a connection, through my very, very good friend, Dr. Michelle Robin, and she is always putting good out into the world, and you could say the same about my guest today. And actually running, not that anybody at home knows this, but we're running a little bit behind in the interview, because he and I were catching up on this and that, and we went off onto a baseball tangent. And I mean, he's in St. Louis. Why wouldn't we go off on a baseball tangent? But we'll get right to it right now, as I'm joined by a guest whose epic story of survival has motivated millions to wake up and truly live. His name is John O'Leary, a man who, at just nine years old, defied overwhelming odds after suffering burns on 100% of his body. What could have been the end of his story became the beginning of an extraordinary journey. Today, John is a beloved keynote speaker, best selling author, and the inspiration behind the upcoming motion picture, Soul on Fire. I can't wait to see this. Through his message, he reminds audiences that every day is a gift and that each of us has the power to succeed one action at a time. I got to be honest. I, I'm asked or connect with a ton of speakers that sometimes are good guests for this podcast, sometimes, aren't? I want to try to help them. Promote everybody. Of course, you can only do so much. I don't know that John needs the promotion, although you should go check out the movie when it comes out, and his books. I'm not just inspired, but I'm, I love talking to speakers that that I can look up to, that I see doing what they're doing all over the country, all over the world. And so without having met John, really, until today, he's been someone that I've been watching from a distance, and I'm happy to have John here with me right now. Upcoming movie, everything else that's going on. You're a busy man. John, how are you?

John O'Leary 2:36

I'm still singing the rap song Everybody Knows Joel Goldberg.

Joel Goldberg 2:39

Yeah, sorry about that.

John O'Leary 2:40

Can't get it out of my head. Man, it's going to be with me tonight when I'm tucking the kids in. Joel, we knew each other when you were at St. Louis working, and now we get to know each other again as you are on the other side of the state. So, man, it's good to be home with you.

Joel Goldberg 2:54

It is. And we got to solving all the baseball world's problems, and we should probably get going and and share some of these conversations with everyone. I I know you've told your story a million times, and thank goodness for your story, because you've helped so many people with it, and I know it's become your your life's work, but in your wildest dreams, Could you ever imagine that this would take its way to the big screen?

John O'Leary 3:18

No, and probably when you interview players, if you ask them, when they were little, did you really think that they would become playing players with the Royals or the Cardinals or any other team? It may be in the back of their mind, they dreamed it, but the reality of how difficult it is to become reality, it's it's impossible, which means it's a miracle. So I just feel so blessed to have survived the fire when I was nine, to have found beauty in the scars when I was in my late 20s, to find this career that I'm living in now as a speaker and writer. And then for Hollywood to take an interest in this, which is, it's a little bit of a burn story, it's a little bit of a love story, it's a little bit of a baseball story, it's a lot of a life story, of how the difficult things we face don't have to negative, negatively define the futures we get to live into. And so, man, I like I'm blown away by all of it. And I'm grateful they're telling us the story now.

Joel Goldberg 4:14

And I think you're this way too, and just very briefly getting to know you that, you know, I'm blown away by everybody's stories, because everybody has a story, right? I mean, it just happens that yours was very, very dramatic and and will make for a compelling and inspirational movie. But everybody, if you dig deep enough, has a story, but it's another side to have the gift of sharing that story and to be able to take it and make people's lives better. At what point did you realize along the way, like, was it when you got on stage? Was it before that, that, wait a minute, this moment in my life that could have taken my life that was so horrifying and oh, by the way, you're just nine years old. World, at what point does that become a gift?

John O'Leary 5:02

Well, it's not when you're nine and you're going through it, and it's not when you wake up two months later with your fingers amputated, and it's not when you're going through therapy or bandage changes or the works. Man, so it was not when I was a kid, it was not when I came home from the hospital. It was not when they had John O'Leary day at the ballpark at Busch Stadium. Number two, it wasn't when I went off to school or college. Man, for me, if you're asking, like, for a turning point, and I know, like we play baseball in a secular world, but I'm in the back row of a church service. This is where it happened. And this pastor says, for those of you who feel like you've got no talent, listen to me. Your life is a precious gift. You got one job: Say yes to being used for good. And so this 29 year old, nobody writes that down in my journal that night, I go to work. The following day, Joel and I get a call from a girl who says, Mr. John, will you speak at my school? And I'd never told anybody how I got burned. I never thought there was beauty in the scars. But on a challenge that I heard a day before, to say yes, I offered that word back. Two weeks later, I speak to this group of Girl Scouts. There's only three in the room man, so this is not a big broadcast. It's not a big payday. Was not paid a box of Samoas for the effort. So we're not exactly killing it, man. This is not George Brett, okay, right? But I, I said, Yeah. And then in the room that day there was a man who was a Rotarian, and he said, Would you speak in my rotary club? And then in that room there was someone from Qantas, and then a Chamber of Commerce, and then a prison. And so along the way, this awkward, introverted burn survivor kept saying yes to the next audience. And as you know, because you're also a speaker, every time you speak, someone comes up to you afterwards and they say something like Joel or John. It's not like your story but.. And when you hear that enough, you begin to recognize you're not in the business of speaking. You're in the business of doing life with people. You're in the business of providing hope, of bringing them forward in their life. And so for me, Joel, like the start of embracing the story began when I was 29. You're interviewing me today, I'm 48, I never would have imagined I would have spoken 2700 times, or had a couple books out, or had this film done about my life. But I do know that God is big, that He works through broken people, and that when we share our stories, it empowers people to share theirs.

Joel Goldberg 7:30

There's so much, like everything you're saying right now is, is a message I've been receiving lately about the power of giving and whatever that could mean, too, right? I was listening to a meditation this morning. People now hear me a lot, I can't believe it, like hear me a lot on this podcast, refer to meditation. It's not anything I ever did in the past, and now I can't start my day without it. But the message that I heard this morning was that there, there are so many different ways to give. It might just be a compliment to someone. It could be offering help, it could be offering your speaking services or a solution. And it doesn't have to be transactional. It doesn't have to result in business and and there's so much power when you understand that what that giving can do. And hey, great if you get paid along the way for it. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. This isn't a matter of give away all of your stuff for free. This is about having a giving heart and giving it forward, and it just keeps paying itself back, doesn't it John?

John O'Leary 8:31

Well, you since you know my story, you recognize that one of the individuals who saved my life was not a nurse, although they did. Or not a doctor, although they did. Or a parent, although they did. Or a first responder, although they did. Maybe the most important person in my story is a radio announcer named Jack Buck, and even the friends who wear Royal blue probably recognize and appreciate the voice of Jack Buck.

Joel Goldberg 8:57

How could you not? Yeah.

John O'Leary 8:58

49 years, I think, as a broadcaster, seven Hall of Fames, great leader, great voice, great broadcaster. And yet, better person, better giver. He learned the night I was burned, that I was dying in a hospital. And by the way, we had not met each other before, and I'm not a person of notoriety at age nine. I'm a nobody. And he went out to visit me that first day, that first evening. Leaves a charity fundraiser to go visit a stranger in a hospital in St. Louis County, walks and sits down next to me and says into my darkness because my eyes were swollen shut at the time. He says, kid, wake up. Wake up. You are going to live. Going to survive. Keep fighting. John O'Leary Day at the ballpark will make it all worthwhile. Keep fighting. And he's told that night, Joel that I'm going to die. And yet this man comes back the following day and visits again and encourages again and serves again. And it is a long, beautiful story, but that man came into my life during the five months that I was in hospital and never told a soul what he was doing. He then picks me up in a Lincoln Town Car. Takes me downtown in August. We have John O'Leary Day at the ballpark, introduces me to all the ball players, puts me on the radio that night. Doesn't tell a soul though, what he's really doing. He learns that I can't hold anything with my broken hands, man. I don't have fingers. So he starts sending me baseballs, each baseball with a note that read kid, if you want a second baseball, write a thank you letter. And at the end of that summer, 1987, Cards go on to the World Series. Jack sends a nobody named John 60 baseballs, teaching a 10-year-old now that his life has value. So you talk about like the power of giving man, he wasn't doing this for social media or influence. He did it because he could, and in doing so, he changed the life of a person named John. But also that the life of someone else named Jack, and that's the way giving always works. It's never You mentioned a kind word. Yeah, perfect. A kind word never returns hollow, though. Your love of someone else always impacts two lives, minimum. So I hear you when you say, I've been challenged lately to be more generous with my life. I think we all should listen to that prodding and then do something with it.

Joel Goldberg 11:25

I'm going to briefly share a story that I hope does not come off as I'm going to sit there and I think about the spirit of Jack Buck, and, you know, I don't know if he would share my story if he was in my shoes, because the point is not to be, you know, the point is not, not to pound my chest over it and say, Hey, look at what I did. But I wrote about this in my most recent book, because I and I'm talking about it some on stage, because I just, I feel like, if it can give some other people hope and catch their attention, along with honoring, you know, someone that was lost. But one of the beautiful things about this job, my job is that I get to meet the young John O'Leary's of the world. And I'm not talking about they have to be in a hospital or anything you just I mean, last night, I'm sitting in Chicago as you and I are recording this, talking to fans in the stands that were so excited for this one moment to be able to to to chat with me. And my buddy was down there visiting, and he goes, Man, you got a gift for putting a smile on people's faces. And I thought, just being nice, that's it, right? And so, but anyway, over the years, I got to meet this kid named Noah, Noah Marker, who was born with a disability, in a wheelchair for life, and was studying to be a journalist. And he loved, I mean, I met him at a at a baseball clinic that they had at Kauffman Stadium. And, you know, a lot, a lot of kids in wheelchairs and with different disabilities. And so we went out and did a little story on it, and I interviewed him, and he was probably, I don't know, 9, 10, 11 years old at the time, right? And we stayed in touch. You know, he would message me on Twitter and private message back and forth all the time. Anyway, fast forward to two years ago, and he's out at the game one night, and he had the night before they they've been rained out. They were about to get rained out. He private messaged me, hey, is this game gonna get rained out tonight? I want to save my family from coming out there. His brother's also in a wheelchair. So, you know, I mean, they got to get the kids in the van and everything, and and, and I said, You know what? It's not public yet, but, and at this point, he's studying to be a journalist. He's commuting to Mizzou, actually, from Kansas City, with his parents. And and he says, he he says, I want to help my family, so I'll give you the inside scoop here, but you can't go public with it. The game has been postponed. It probably won't be announced for another 30 minutes. He thanked me. He came back the next day with his family instead. Two days later, I get handed a note by a random person, and he had passed away. And I, like, I read it right before we went on the air for our pregame show, which was obviously a mistake on my part, and reached out to the guy that had handed me the note with his phone number on it to confirm and he, it was just unexpected death. He was such a sweet kid, and the family reached out to me. A week later, I'm walking through New York and Manhattan, and then the dad said, I know you're busy, but the celebration of life is going to be next week. You guys are in town. Would you be willing to be a paul bearer?

John O'Leary 14:33

Wow.

Joel Goldberg 14:33

I thought, are you kidding me? Of course. And like, that's so much bigger than baseball, and I did have this beautiful relationship with him. We weren't like, close, close, but like, you know, he knew he could reach out to me. And John, when I, when I walked in, it was a high school auditorium, and his mom makes a beeline for me right as the service is about to start, and says, I want you to come say goodbye to him. And I'm not great with open coffins. But of course, I wasn't gonna say no and and right as I walk up, she says he wanted to be you. And I don't know that I needed more inspiration to do what I do, but that was it, right there. So like, I just, I want to I share that story, not because look at me. I share that story because we all need to understand. We don't need to be John O'Leary. We don't need to be in front of a television camera or on a stage that every one of us can make an impact every single day. I'm going to get off my soapbox, but I just, I know that that that is your heart every single day too.

John O'Leary 15:38

So first of all, what a brilliant, tragic, redemptive story. And one of the cool things about it is, and take this the right way. In some regards, what you did for him is not that impressive, you know? I mean, you're kind of nice to him. You texted him back, you brought him on the field. Like, this isn't hard, man, and we've made generosity so hard. And so heroic, when we do it, and we put it all over social media, like, Look at me. And what the best among us have always done, and what they've always did, do in the past, in particular the great giants. Man looking backward is they just loved. They just loved the one in front of them. They did it authentically. It's why they have baseball fans for generations. Here's, I'm gonna let y'all on in a little secret. Baseball's sometimes boring. So how do you stomach three hours in a Kansas City, hot Kauffman stadium? Because it's about connecting, ultimately, to the people around you, and then generationally, it's this generational drum beat that that connects us to our past and our future in mighty ways. And if it is only about executing on the field perfectly and save or a bat trick like it becomes boring. We've taken the humanity out of it. But when it becomes about a kid in a wheelchair who wants to be a journalist and wants to be Joel, and you love him and you encourage him and get back to him, you've got a fan for life. And I think that's true in baseball, but your podcast is bigger than baseball. It's true in life, that's your job. Love people. It's not that hard. It's free.

Joel Goldberg 17:06

Yeah, it is free. And you know, the other reason why I love to tell that story is one, you know, I get to keep Noah's name alive. So that's a gift that I get with this platform and and it's just such a beautiful family and such a such a big fan of baseball. And to like you mentioned too, like you know, this didn't just help John. This helped Jack. What I got out of it, I wish I didn't, but what I got out of it, like that, that fulfillment is, is living with me every single day. And again, I bring it up, because that's all it takes. But you get to do it and get on stage too, and I know you have this down. They're all different, right? I mean, every speech is different, but when you do it enough, and you have enough reps, you've experienced all of it in some form or another. What what do you get? I know what you give. What do you get when you're on stage?

John O'Leary 18:04

So I'm an introvert, meaning I don't like podcasts.

Joel Goldberg 18:07

Thanks for coming.

John O'Leary 18:09

Yeah, you're welcome. You owe me. Please cut the check to John O'Leary. There's an apostrophe. I don't like the bright light of stage performance. I don't like green rooms. I don't like mic checks. I don't like travel, and I love being with my family, which means I don't like being away from them. So like, in other words, I hate almost everything about the career I've ended up doing for my life. So then what is it that you get? Man, here's what I get. Afterwards every single time I go to the back of the room and my job is not to sell books. It's to love people. And experience after experience I get to meet all these Noah's, man, who come up to me, and they almost always begin with a sentence, John, it's nothing like your story, but... And then they talk about the diagnosis. They talk about bipolar, they talk about the bankruptcy, they talk about the divorce, they talk about the Denkinger call in 1985 and how their heart still is on the table from that. Like, whatever they want to talk about, fine, they talk about it. But I have an opportunity of having this uniquely human connection and then walking forward with them afterwards. We have the podcast, and we've got newsletters and books and all this stuff to love people. There's an author I love, Joel. His name is Henry, now and and now on writes what is most private and personal is most universal and sacred. So the very thing that you think is uniquely your trash pit, once it's redeemed and you're able to share it for others, so you're not sharing it for ego. That's important. When you're able to share the whole of your heart with others, they're able to go along for the ride in powerful ways. So man, our work, when we do it right, is not about leadership training or selling baseball tickets or information. It's about healing people and in that they can become better leaders, in that they can become more rabid as Royals fans or Cardinal fans. And but we were in the business of loving people, and somehow we find ourselves being paid to do it. So I'm blown away by that fact.

Joel Goldberg 20:08

Yeah, me too. I, you know, I just, I was just the kid at seven years old, eight years old, that was interrupting first and second grade trying to give updates on the previous night's baseball game, and my teacher would complain about that. That's one of my opening lines when I get on stage. Because, you know how many people in the audience knew that they would be in this spot doing exactly what they were doing? Oh, by the way, I didn't dream of hosting podcasts, talking to you, you know, getting on stage and speaking. I just loved sports. That was it. Just like you did growing up and and I got to talk about it, that the sweet spot in all of this, no matter what we're doing, is when we find that purpose, that something that brings meaning to what we're doing. And again, you don't need to be on a stage or in front of a television camera, traveling the country talking about a baseball game to be able to find that. It took me a long time to figure it out as well. I want to, I want to get back to the movie and to the part about being introverted, because, like, you know, it's just more and more and more, which is great. It's more people that you're touching. It's more people you get, you are going to get to now inspire and touch people that may never even see you on stage, but are going to see you on the big screen. I mean, the magnitude of this thing too. My lighthearted question to that, and then we'll get to the serious is, what do your kids think?

John O'Leary 21:36

Here's the best part about my kids. They are so underwhelmed by their dad, they are unimpressed, rightly. So they know me. They whoop me up in backyard, games of basketball, in ping pong and pool, whatever we're playing, they kill me. My kids, at one point, were cute. Now they are all like little men. I have four kids, and they're all teenagers, so man, I'm raising this den of wolves who do not own shirts in the summertime. But also they, uh, they, here's what they're really recognizing. Because almost everywhere we go, and this is not only in St. Louis, but now it's national. People come up and they say hi to me, and then they share their story. So what they're recognizing immediately throughout it all is that dad's story is not about him, it's about others. And I used to have to tell them that like I'm on the road for them, but now they're seeing it firsthand, and they're seeing the letters that come into the mailbox. So they're getting the emails, and they're here like they're hearing this from others. So what did they think about their dad? They are unimpressed by him, but they're overwhelmed, I think, by how this story is being used to remind people of the power within their lives. That's awesome. So my kids had zero interest in the film being done, obviously. My wife has still in the zero interest of the film being done. But once they started rolling, and once you hear the word action, and you see 500 people behind a camera and two people in front of it. Man, it's a circus, and circuses attract people. So my my kids are, were attracted to this. They recognize that this is a moment in time. Don't blink. So they would bring friends on set. And I think when you're showing your buddies that your dad does something that most others don't. It's just a cool way to connect with Well, what's it really about? And it's, let me say it to you this way. When they did the poster for the film Soul on Fire, they had an actor who portrays me named Joel Courtney, with his arms in the air. Like I'm a stud. Hear me roar. So I wrote him back, and I'm like, Guys, I think that's the wrong focus. So when Sony redid the poster, they flipped Joel around, they turned him into a shadow, and then they made it ultimately a mosaic. So in every inch of this movie poster, you see scenes from throughout the film of people who showed up for him that allowed that kid to survive a fire. That's part of it. Allowed that young boy to start seeing beauty and the reflection you'll find out in the film, eventually even having an opportunity of speaking to the St. Louis Cardinals, throwing out the first pitch, living his life well, because of others, because of their work, because of their grace, because of their love. And so all the things we touch today, Joel, aren't about glorifying us. It's drawing people into recognize, going back to your earlier question, the work you do, the kindness you offer others can save a life, and it might be yours you save.

Joel Goldberg 24:36

Yeah, it's now that just left me speechless, which doesn't happen very often, by the way, but I was just thinking about the benefits on all sides of that. And by the way, I so relate to your kids, not that I've ever been in a movie or featured in a movie or had a movie about me. However, having kids that were two and five when we left St. Louis and have grown up here in Kansas City, and never known any other way than everybody asking them about their dad and the awkwardness of being, you know, a young teenager rolling your eyes to coming to actually appreciate it and understanding the responsibilities that come with it and everything that you've talked about, but also the normalcy of them just looking at me as dad and holding me so like when you talked about, I'm gonna now, everybody knows Joel Goldberg, all this type of stuff. Do you know how many years that we've had that had that song for about six years now on this podcast? How many years I'd get the little snide comments from my Well, everybody knows Joel Goldberg, dad, you know, like that type of stuff. They keep me humble. They keep me in line. My son and daughter, who are now 20 and 22, and my wife, are never going to allow me to be anything other than you know. Who they know me to be, which is, which is truly one of the greatest gifts, right?

John O'Leary 25:57

Totally. Anytime I mess up at home, which is daily, and certainly when I'm barbecuing each evening, I'm burning something or making it too raw. And then there's usually a reaction from John O'Leary, and my kids always say, like, Oh, way to live with your soul on fire dad, like giving me trouble for being the exact opposite of what I preach. Because they know me, man, they know their dad, and thank God they do well.

Joel Goldberg 26:22

And that's part of too, like the whole I'm not maybe introverted, but I've become more introverted just because you're on so much, and you got to find a way to recharge. And so there's, there's comfort in going back home to the familiarity of those that truly know dad, right?

John O'Leary 26:37

So isn't it cool to endless? I mean, we're all performative a little bit. I think you're authentic on air, you were in St. Louis. I knew your work here. I try to be radically authentic everywhere I am. There's a different level. When you push the button on the car, it parks. It's off. You open the garage, or you walk in and you're home. You're home. I say People often ask me in podcast like, where's your favorite place? Man, 50 states, dozens of countries, what's your number one? Like, St. Louis. Yeah, that boring city in the Midwest with the arch and the sub 500 team this year, that's my that's my favorite spot. Man, always. And if you're asking me what I think about best stadiums, dude, Kauffman is right up there with Fenway, with the Giants stadium, with Pittsburgh. Kauffman is awesome. I know there's conversations about a new version, you get it, but from a baseball purist perspective, it is a great place to watch baseball.

Joel Goldberg 27:36

And it's weird because I when I people ask me to rate my stadiums and favorites and all that, which is, I think, a fun question, that it's one of the questions that I guess don't get asked over and over again, that I think is really fun, because sometimes it even changes in my mind, it might be different for me than someone else, because it also involves working conditions. What's the easiest place to work? The hardest? Like I don't, I don't know sight lines from the seats. I, you know food concessions, but I always say, let me, let me judge 29 of them and not Kaufman, because it's my home. And so how can I compare everybody else's homes to mine? But Kauffman's beautiful. I just but, you know, it's home and and, and when I leave for a week or a week and a half, I go away and see the rest of the country, and then I get to come back home to Kauffman Stadium, which is a really, really cool thing. Um, real quick before my baseball themed questions, what'd you think when you watched the movie? What? What were those emotions like? And what did you think?

John O'Leary 28:28

Well, so I'm up to view like number 92 right now. So I've it's like watching the same good baseball game again and again and again. So it's pretty wild how frequently I watch it. But even in view 92 I'm still laughing and crying, which is a positive sign. Let me answer it this way. There's so many heroes in the film, but one of them is my dad. You'll, when you see the film, you'll notice, but he helped save my life. He reminded me of the power of love. He offered so much grace throughout my journey forward in recovery, and he had Parkinson's disease for 30 years. So part of the story is this journey of a dad and a son around baseball and and the dad's slow regression with Parkinson's. Well, I took my dad to see the film in May. We had a client who was going to buy 3,000 tickets, but they wanted to see the movie first, and so I took my mom and my dad, sat next to dad. He held my hand the whole time. My father could not speak anymore, but at the very end, as people are clapping, I leaned over and I said, Hey, Hey, Dad, what do you, what do you think about your movie, man? Because in some regards, like this is his movie, Joel, be like a movie about your son being made like it's your movie. So he leaned back and whispered, what a gift. What a gift. Then we got up, he went home with my mom, came down with a cough about three days later, he never recovered. And on May 30, my father passed away. So the final words I heard my dad say to me. I were, what a gift. And now I look back on it, and I don't think he was like the first Cisco Ebert of Soul on Fire, like he's not, you know, two thumbs up, man, what a gift. It was this life review, reckoning, recognizing this terrifically tragic story. I mean, dude, it's kid getting burned time in hospital. Movement forward, the story afterwards, ultimately, this recovering, this redemptive journey, arc, what a gift to recognize. It ends with a standing ovation. And that's true in my life. And I think if we hang on long enough, it's true in all of our lives. So what do I think about the movie, man? Every time I see it, it moves me. But my hope for it is when people leave they recognize the St. Louis Cardinals aren't the heroes. John's not the hero. Jack Bucks not the hero. Jack Buck. They are. Joel is. Your kids are. And the call, the opportunity is to leave the theater recognizing dude. What a gift. What do I want to do with it?

John O'Leary 28:29

Oh, that's beautiful. I can't wait to watch it. I really can't. And I believe the release date is October 10. I believe, if I?

John O'Leary 30:12

Right, cool, lots of the talent actually came from Kansas City. So several the actresses who played my sisters are there. Some of the producers, a lot of like the background, guys who are in charge of booms and sound it's made in Missouri. So it is a it's a celebration of our home. So I look forward to your folks checking it out.

Joel Goldberg 31:29

Yeah, I want to encourage everybody to check it out as you're listening to this, and get out there and see it. I'll be doing the same or as you're listening to this. I may have already done so, but we're recording obviously, in advance, as I always do. All right, baseball themed questions, what's the biggest home run that you have hit professionally in your career?

John O'Leary 31:49

Dude, I mean, you could say, like, I guess having a movie done is kind of Yeah, I think so. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna go in a different direction. I'm an introvert. I struggle with self worth. Still do. I struggle with my own body, reflection, scars for my neck to my toes. We'll do that to a guy and the at the the boldness of being invited to speak to three Girl Scouts in third grade and say yes to them like that is I think it's way more radical than having a movie done or being on podcasts or books or big old stages. To say yes, that first time, is radical. So the biggest home run was the audacity to walk up to the plate face the demon and swing, man.

Joel Goldberg 32:35

Do you? Do you still fight that?

John O'Leary 32:41

Every day.

Joel Goldberg 32:42

I figured.

John O'Leary 32:42

Imposter syndrome, man. Like I know what to do now. I know how to move an audience. I know like I know. I know how to pull the string and roll, but every single time out I, I'm the the judgment I face is not your critics judging the film or my speaking performance or your podcast. It's the reflection in the mirror saying you're not enough. So like that is who I battle against, and then when I win, it's recognizing God's going to use it go. Just go, man, trust.

Joel Goldberg 33:09

I asked you that question, knowing the answer, even though I don't know you that well, because, I mean, I go through the same stuff, and most people do, and there's comfort in that, and there's comfort in knowing that that's just part of it, and that we we battle ourselves more than than anything else.

John O'Leary 33:26

Can I, and speaking to that, you work with athletes, so do I, from time to time. When I spoke to the Cardinals, they all walked in. Take this the right way, a little smug. No one really wants to be there. No one wants a leadership speaker in front of them. They know how to play ball. These are pros, man. They're stallions. Let us run. And then I do my thing. And an hour after it starts, it ends. And then there's this form of line that forms in the front of the room, wraps around the entire room of all these millionaire, prideful athletes ready to do their thing an hour ago, and now they're willing to put that on the back burner and talk life, and they cry and they share and they offer this truth that they struggle. And so we sit up in the stands and we look down at these overpaid athletes and we wonder, how good How do you swing at that one man? It's low and outside, what are they doing? And we don't recognize. He's a son. He's struggling with his girlfriend. The wife is thinking about walking out on him. He's making all kinds of mistakes on the road that don't show up on a box score. Like, this stuff is life that we're talking about. And so the cool thing about your work, Joel and my work, is we get to remind people that it's bigger than that. It's bigger than that. So for those of us looking down at those who we feel have made it, let me tell you something. They haven't. The GM of the Royals and the Cardinals struggles with self worth. The star pitcher and prospects struggle with self worth. Usually, attitude is the personification. That they actually, actually feel like they're not enough. That's what that actually is. So when you get a whisper of it, just recognize what's really going on there. They need to be loved.

Joel Goldberg 35:08

I've yet to meet a major league baseball manager that doesn't go back to their hotel room or their home when the team is at home and overthink and beat themselves up over every little decision, and then they put on that good face to show confidence and and all of that. So, yeah, it's, I think about it all the time. I'm lucky enough I believe that my role in doing what I do as a reporter and a host is is humanizing everybody and telling their stories. And then sometimes, you know, the best compliments that I get John is when up it happened the other day, a parent or a grandparent is in town to watch their son or or on the road, and hear these grandparents as we're walking out of the stadium in Chicago, pointing and looking at me and my broadcast partner, because they watch us every night. They're in their 70s, or whatever they're at. They watch us every night from California, and they just wanted to thank us for being fair. That's awesome. And I'm like, it doesn't take much, like what you said before, it doesn't take much. Maybe I can go, you know, get a sports radio talk show and beat the heck, oh, beat the heck out of everybody if I want to do that. But that's just not my style. So anyway, we all have a chance to make an impact, as we keep saying, how about a swing and a miss along the way? And what did you learn from it? I

John O'Leary 36:24

I guess it's this. Years into my work, I went on to autopilot. So about 10 years in, I got kind of got bored by me, and I just was just doing the reps, I guess, kind of burnout, or just kind of done with me. And and then I remember bumping into a quote from Frank Sinatra that the reason he performed the way he did is it might be the first or last time when someone was seeing him perform. And that little that little like push, changed the way I viewed the work, which changed the way I delivered the message, which completely changed the way I love the audience afterwards. For me, Joel, it's not about selling speeches or books or movie tickets. All of the work is about doing relationship with people One to One. I hire employees so we can live mission out afterwards. Like, all I really want to do is I'm a hospital chaplain by training. Like, one to one is where the work is done, and it's not about evangelizing. It's about meeting people and serving them and loving them, talking about ice cream in the Royals like, that's all you do as a chaplain, and that's what I want to do as a speaker, or as an author, or as a guy with this film coming out. So the swing in the Miss was being bored by my life, and luckily for me, was a file tip, and I had a chance to swing again.

Joel Goldberg 37:37

I love that. I love it so much. Just I'm inspired by all of it. So I don't I'm processing it all as we're kind of speaking live and taking it all in and as ways to motivate myself too. So your work is affecting me as well, for whatever, whatever that is worth. The final of the baseball theme questions, and then I got four quick ones to wrap it up. Is small ball. I don't need to explain to you my guest that I had recorded before you, and I recorded was out of South Africa. And I thought, Okay, I got to figure out how to explain small ball here. I do not need to small explain small ball. Whitey ball. Any of that to you, other than I love to describe it as, what are the little things that make you better, that lead to big results? What's small ball for you?

John O'Leary 38:18

So first of all, I had a college roommate who was from France and explaining baseball to someone not from the US or Canada or, I guess, Japan or places where they may have grown up with it. It's almost impossible. So don't, don't even try, man, explaining like, why sometimes you walk to first base and other times sprint like, it's all so confusing. So small ball for me, I think keeping the main thing, the main thing, I start at home early. I get up before I need to. I'm in the I'm scripturally like trying to grow in my faith walk. I have a gratitude journal. I start the day with my tank full, which equips me all day long, to empty it out into others and then, importantly, not expecting anything in return. I'm not trying to get anything from you, Joel, in this podcast. I'm not trying to get anything from clients when they have me speak. I'm trying to meet people where they are, and then, if you do that authentically, passionately and effectively, they fall in love with it and with you, and they'll they'll support you, they'll push you forward, but they'll also smell if you're doing it for self preservation or promotion. So I first fill my bucket and then spend my day emptying into others.

Joel Goldberg 39:31

Makes sense. Resonates Great small ball. There four final questions as we round the bases. The first one to have your oldest son carry on the name of Jack, from one of your heroes, Jack Buck, who, by the way, is one of the nicest human beings anybody ever met. I'm not saying anything that anybody else didn't say to be a young broadcaster in St. Louis, and this was his final couple years. And you know, I was at his funeral like everybody else there, which was like, you know, the loss of a father or grandfather. And I didn't grow up in St. Louis, but, but, but to be a young broadcaster that had started there, I mean, was new there, and to have him walk by me in the halls at Old Busch Stadium and say, kid, you're doing a great job. I love watching you every night. I thought, you know who I am? Really? To have your son carry on that name. What does it mean?

John O'Leary 40:18

It means two things. The first is, when he sees a failure in his dad, he'll have a success in his name, right? So that, to me, that is really important. So I wanted him to know that. And secondly, then understanding what the name right meant. Like, what does the name Jack really mean? And when Jack Buck passed away, and your listeners in Kansas City vaguely know of him, I'm sure the great calls, we'll see you tomorrow night, that kind of stuff. But they may not know the heart of Jack. When he passed away, KMOX, his his station open up the airways for three hours of call in with how he influenced your life. And I don't know how many, how many stories you would have of the Noah's of the world you've influenced, maybe a bunch, but John O'Leary does not have three hours. They open it up for three hours, commercial free. It went on for three days, 24 hours a day, of folks around the Midwest and around the country calling in and saying, Man, I was in, this is one of the stories. I was in an airport in LaGuardia getting ready to pay for the pizza. And then I hear from behind me that the voice say, I'll cover his tab, kid, and it just random acts of love. Jack Buck's showing up for some random New Yorker, man. Not even a Cardinal fan, a freaking Mets fan of all didn't matter. Did not matter. This kid grew up in the Great Depression, served his nation, picked up a Purple Heart, came home and recognized I've got the greatest gig in life, man. I get to talk about baseball all day long, and when I'm not doing that, I'm going to serve in the community. So he made it his life's work. He did it extraordinarily well. And Jack changed my life in mighty ways. When you see the film, because we're talking about a few of the things he did, you will be blown away by what this guy did. He never told a soul, not even Joe, not even Carol, his wife. Never told a soul. He gave because he could.

Joel Goldberg 42:07

I'm not surprised at all. That was Jack Buck and one of a kind. There are. There are plenty of others with that heart, by the way, too. I look at Milwaukee and Brewers fans lost Bob Bucher this year. Totally different personality, but that's one where you don't need to explain to anyone up there who he is or the impact that he had on people's lives and and they're just, you know, Vin Scully, the same way in Los Angeles, where it's just, this wasn't the loss of this was the loss of someone more than just a beloved figure. This was the loss of someone that was in everyone's house for generations. So just just to explain the power of that. And, you know, I can make any any comparisons or analogies in terms of the magnitude, but think of someone that everybody loves. It's hard for everybody to love somebody. Everybody loved Jack Buck, and some of it was for the reasons that you're explaining. Some of it was that he was just an amazing announcer, and all the rest of it. Okay. Second question, as we round the bases, I'll just go light hearted, because these are the stupid things that pop in my heads. Are Samoas your favorite Girl Scout cookie, and why didn't they give you any? They should have at least given you like, one box.

John O'Leary 43:13

You know, it's so beautiful. I'm glad you asked that Samoss, by far, are the only Girl Scout Cookie truly worthy of investing $17 a box in. So yes, they remain, in fact, for your listeners, if you're just trying to do the right thing, don't go to the movie. Save your money. Send O'Leary Samoas and and we'll call it even. Okay, so yes, I love Samoas. I loved them back then. It's occasionally a joke I'll talk about, like, from the stage and.

Joel Goldberg 43:38

I didn't know that, by the way, you just dropped the Samoas line and I'm like, That's my favorite.

John O'Leary 43:42

It's hilarious, man. But I occasionally, I'll bring it up, and frequently, my clients will send me these random purple boxes of Samoas, and my kids and I will rip open into them. Yes.

Joel Goldberg 43:51

I don't even care if they sometimes it's the name change, depending on the location, whatever.

John O'Leary 43:56

You know that they there's another name for them, like Coconut,

Joel Goldberg 44:00

Coconut, that's something Delights, or something like Coconut Delight, maybe? I really don't care, as long as they don't change what they taste like, and whether that be out of the box or frozen, I don't care. I love them. Okay, that was a tangent that I was not expecting. But sometimes, you know, we go to fun places like that, and it's good. All right. Third question, as we round the bases, Is there anywhere that you haven't spoken, that you want to speak. You talked about the best place being home to come home, the best place to travel. But you've had the the opportunity to travel all over the world, which means that you get to inspire people from all different cultures and all different backgrounds, where somewhere you'd like to go?

John O'Leary 44:38

So I'm going to put this out there. I had a chance of speaking with the Savannah Bananas last weekend in Savannah. And if you've been to a game, the baseball purists will hate them, and I truly understand where that's coming from, and yet they filled up Busch Stadium 47,000 2 days in a row, and had 90,000 waitlisted. So something's happening, and it's more than muse. And it's more than the goofy dances. These guys are loving the crowd in in ways, candidly, MLB has forgotten. Yes, NASCAR knows how to do this. Savannah Bananas know how to do this. Baseball forgot, and we think it's heroic when you see the third baseman show up one time in a hospital, pass out baseball cards and then go to work. There was a time where the cameras weren't following those guys. They just did it, and I'm sure many of the guys still do. Here's my hope. I would love to speak to 30 Major League Baseball teams in spring training and talk to them about what success looks like that year. Yes, boys. Strive for the top of the line, man. 300 batting average, 400 on fine. Go for it. Go for first place. Go for the trophy at the end of it all. But understand, ultimately, what real success and significance looks like. They will forget. I trust me on this one, the wins you put into the box column, they will forget it. They will forget that base hit that drove in the winning run. They will they will never forget, as you talked about with Noah, the way you made them feel. And any fool can do that. Yep, you are doing it. Joel, John O'Leary is doing it. Jack Buck did it. Many of my friends who are in Major League are doing it right now. Can you imagine, though, if we got 30 teams to understand what it's actually about? Because right in St. Louis, certainly, but around the country, I think there's a chance to fill these stadiums a little bit more. So there's a chance to draw forward a nation to one thing that actually connects us, because apparently, it's not politics. Who knew? But what if it was baseball? And what if you found love, not with a game that sometimes goes a little slow or it's a little hot or a little dry, but it's a chance to sit next to your dad and talk? I just lost my dad, dang, it. I wish I had another chance. But what if you can have that with your kid or business friend or the guy behind you is wearing a Pirate's jersey and you resent him like I did last night? Dude, it's a chance to come together, but we will not if our guys who are playing don't love us before we come in. So I would love a chance not to speak at Mount Rushmore or Air Force One or whatever else. I want a chance to speak to baseball players about baseball.

Joel Goldberg 47:07

It's so much more impactful than sometimes they realize and sometimes they realize it too late. And I didn't say it before, but I'll say it now, because, you know, I'm sorry for for your loss with your dad. I just, I can't tell you how much it means a lot when you mentioned it and you love baseball. Because I can't tell you how many people I hear from that will say some version of, I have so many memories with my dad totally that involved you, that involved the Royals, that involved watching your broadcast. And by you, they're not saying Joel Goldberg. They're saying, you know, you guys were part of it, and I miss having those moments with him. So all those people that had those moments listening to the radio, listening to Jack Buck, you know, and Harry Carey and everybody beforehand. So that's just again, a reminder. And I want to walk it off with this. I know we went long, but and again, remind everybody to check out the movie coming out October 10. Theaters near you, Soul on Fire. The book as well. But somebody sitting somewhere, maybe they'll listen to this, somebody sitting somewhere that just went through something that they now have to come to grips with. You know, one of my, I wear this red bracelet, which is for my friend Sarah, with ALS, and I've written about her in both of my books, and her life could have turned for the worse when she was diagnosed in her late 20s with ALS. Former police officer, and it's become better because of all the lives she's impacted. And so someone is going to have an opportunity at a time where they don't think they're ever going to have an opportunity again. What do you tell that person? I'm ending on a high note John.

John O'Leary 48:47

Well, I love it for the answer. I mean, you already know it. I hopefully your audience wrote it down. The word is yes. So when you get the opportunity, the answer is yes. Whether it's three Girl Scouts or it's Kauffman Stadium or it's bush or it's eight people in line who are just struggling with something, the answer of service is yes. But I think you're asking a deeper question. John, when someone is struggling, what's your advice as you cross home plate? It's two things. As a chaplain, which is my one of my jobs, you don't fix it, dude. So the last thing I would say to someone who lost their job as a police officer is, dude, you need to get over that and find the next chapter. It is time. I would never, ever say that. I would love that amazing officer right where she was. I wouldn't judge the anger, the disappointment, or whatever else she he, whatever they were feeling. I would love them. So that's the first thing. I'm with you. I would tell them my website, man, visit me online. We have people to support you and love you. Like, that's why I'm out there. johnolearyinspires.com. Go there. We're here to serve and support and pray. So if you need something, reach out. But then I would end with at some point, at some point, my dad had a conversation with me. It's not in the film and it's not in a book. So Joel its on your podcast. I hated the fact that I got burned, and I hated the fact they were making me go back to school, and I hated the fact that this thing happened to me. So I kept saying, Why me? And finally, my amazing dad, who taught me how to throw a baseball and taught me how to live afterwards, he says to me, as he shuts the bedroom door, comes back and he says, John, dang it. Why not you? The terrible thing has happened, and if you want to spend the rest of your life as a victim to it, have at it. No one will blame you. You've been through the worst. And then he said, or you can choose to be a victor. You can choose to rise up and use it for good, and in every room we roll you into. Or maybe, man, one day you might walk, you walk into people will look up at in awe, at what you've overcome and how you lead your life. And then he leans forward and says, John, victim or Victor, your choice, not mine. And he kissed me and he walked out. So Joel, to your friend who's a police officer, to you and your kids, to your listeners, and to John O'Leary, who's given the advice and needs to heed it. That's it, man. At some point, when we are done grieving, at some point, don't rush it, but at some point, when you're ready to get up and fight for it, for the next day, victim or Victor, you have that choice. And what a gift it is when you recognize you have agency to decide what the next step is in your journey.

Joel Goldberg 51:18

Might be the best advice that I've heard in the eight years of doing this podcast, and it applies to everyone, victim or Victor. And the beauty of it is it's about to get so much bigger, because all these people that are going to watch this movie are going to be inspired. The website, if you want to learn more. I know, I know what John would say. It's not about hiring him if you. If you want inspiration, if you want to learn more, whether it be through a speaking podcast, blog, everything johnolearyinspires.com. We'll have it in the show notes. Let's go out more on the movie, which is easy to find, but soul, soulonfiremovie.com. John, so good to be able to be able to spend this time with you. I am so inspired, so moved. I'm ready to I'm ready to take on the day, sleep deprived and all of that type of stuff, and, and, but, but more significantly than today, just big picture. So much here, so much wisdom, so much inspiration, so much good. And I know you'll keep doing that. Keep loving on those kids. They're the most important. I don't need to tell you that, and I'm so glad that that you carved out the time amidst this busy schedule to be on Rounding the Bases.

John O'Leary 52:28

Joel, I love your work. I love your heart. I love your story of Noah, and I love the Royals. I'm one of the weird guys that thinks you can have an AL team and an NL team. I wear red when I'm on the east side of the state, and dark blue when I'm on the on the west side of the state, one of your owners of the team is a friend of mine, Mike Trigg, an amazing human being who just serves. So, man, I love this podcast, and I love what you're for. So thank you for bringing me on.

Joel Goldberg 52:53

Thanks for coming. Appreciate you.