Chris Kolenda: How Listening to Understand Can Prevent Tragedies

Most nights, my job looks pretty straightforward. 

I talk about baseball in front of a camera, ask players questions, and tell stories that I hope resonate with fans. Other days, I’m on a stage speaking about winning trust and building culture, or behind the mic interviewing with guests on my podcast, Rounding the Bases. 

The platforms are different but the mission is always the same: showing that we are better together than we are alone. 

A recent conversation drove that home in a powerful way, when I was joined by retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Chris Kolenda. Chris is a former ground force commander in Afghanistan, Taliban negotiator, and a trusted advisor to four-star generals and Secretaries of Defense. More recently, he added founder of Strategic Leaders Academy to his already impressive list of credentials. 

On paper, his world couldn’t be more different than mine. But as we talked, themes emerged that apply just as much in a clubhouse as they do in a warzone. 

SINGLE: safe to speak up

During one tour in Afghanistan, Chris led about 800 paratroopers and 500 Afghan soldier partners along the Pakistan border in what was, in his words, one of the deadliest areas of the country. 

He remembered the night a patrol watched about 15 armed enemy fighters move into a compound. It was a valid military target that could have been easily been eliminated with a bomb strike. A single voice changed everything. 

“One of my soldiers came up to me, and he said, ‘Hey boss, something doesn’t feel quite right about this,’” Chris shared. That soldier, whose name was Ted, couldn’t quite name it. But around 1 a.m., a radio operator detailed what appeared to be laundry hanging outside, suggesting something critical: a family might be inside. 

Chris and his team decided not to drop the bomb. Instead, they set an ambush and waited to hit the opposition when they left the house. Hours later, they got confirmation of what could have happened. 

“Early morning, there are about six kids playing in the courtyard, and people taking down the laundry,” he remembered. “And it turns out also that the person that lived there . . . the owner was a respected local judge.” 

Chris met that judge in person a few months later, who eventually became one of the key interlocutors to move the insurgent group into becoming US allies. The lives saved, the allies gained, and a unique outcome in that war all hinged on a culture that made a junior solider feel safe enough to speak up. 

It raises a question that every leader should wrestle with: How often do our employees self-censor? Had Ted self-censored that day and not had the courage to share his concerns, it could have been a very different outcome. 

The stakes in my world aren’t usually life and death, but the pattern is the same. Do people feel safe enough to raise a concern? Or do they keep quiet and hope for the best? Better together starts with that answer. 

DOUBLE: the strongest seek honesty

Psychological safety matters just as much on the frontlines of battle as it does for top brass at any other organization. Chris has advised some of the most powerful leaders in the world, and the best of the best all shared one common trait. 

“The wanted to hear my opinion,” he shared. “They didn’t want me to tell them what they wanted to hear. They wanted me to tell them the truth.” 

Chris shared a story about a heated debate with Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta over the value of negotiating with the Taliban. As Panetta’s personal representative in those talks, he was in the room precisely to offer his honest judgement. One evening, they were challenging each other hard, and Chris walked out convinced he’d gone too far. 

“I left that meeting. I was just like, ‘Oh my goodness, I’m so done,” he remembered. “I’m going to be fired. I got into an argument with the Secretary of Defense in his own office.” 

That night around 10 p.m., he got an email from Panetta’s Chief of Staff. Bracing for the worst, he opened it. 

“He says, ‘You know, there are 20,000 people in this building who will agree with anything the Secretary says,” Chris explained. “The fact that you stood your ground and you stood up to him and challenged his thinking, he found absolutely in valuable and just wanted me to thank you.” 

A leader who invites challenge, and an advisor who cares enough about the mission to offer it, is “better together” at the highest level. 

In sports and business, I’ve seen what happens when leaders surround themselves with yes people. The culture gets quieter. Problems go underground instead of getting resolved. The teams that are better together create room for truth, especially when it’s uncomfortable. 

TRIPLE: from enemies to allies

Another of Chris’ principles in Afghanistan was to start where you agree, then build from there. 

He told a story about a village that had been firing rockets at his unit. The people there had long-standing grievances that pre-dated the Americans. Despite a stark reality on the ground, Chris’s team eventually discovered one thing both sides deeply cared for: schools for kids. 

“They really wanted their kids to go to school, and they didn’t have a school. They had a three-walled building where 250 girls went in the morning, and 300 boys in the afternoon” Chris explained. “They had one tiny chalkboard . . . everyone else drew numbers and letters in dirt with a stick.” 

Chris’s unit sent truckloads of notebooks and pens. The next day, a group of village elders arrived unexpectedly at the outpost and handed him a stack of papers. 

“These are thank you notes written by our children using the notebooks and pens that you gave them” he remembered. The elder continued, “There would be more, but most of the kids didn’t think their handwriting was good enough for you.” 

Whatever your politics, we all want what’s best for our kids, and from that small act grew a much deeper partnership. Working together with the elders and a non-profit, they build a school that is still standing to this day. The village defended it against militant attacks, and the US never got another rocket from that area. 

It’s a dramatic example, but the principle is universal. Better together is often about finding shared purpose and backing it up with concrete, human gestures. 

In my world, I see it when teams invest in their communities and when leaders show up in ways that say, “What matters to you matters to us.” The notebooks and pens might look different, but the impact is the same. 

HOME RUN: turning conflict into collaboration

Threaded through all of Chris’s stories was a demonstration of the power of listening. 

He described four modes: Distracted listening, listening to respond, and listening to win. The fourth, and most impactful, is listening to understand. When people do this, they are committed to grasping the other persons point of view. He shared a powerful example from the field to illustrate. 

His captain, Joey, had been trying for weeks to get a meeting with elders in one of the most dangerous areas. When they finally invited him to dinner, they knew that in Afghan culture, a “guest” is honor-bound to be protected, but it was still a risk. 

“Joey took off his helmet, took off his body armor, handed his weapons to the patrol, and walked with his interpreter . . . into this house,” he remembered. “First time he ever tested this proposition, didn’t know whether he’s going to come out dead or alive.” 

Over dinner, the elders unleashed years of anger over civilian casualties and predatory behavior. They were old wounds, but Joey didn’t argue. He listens and reflected back what he heard so they knew he understood. 

“He says, ‘I can’t change the past, but what we can figure out is how we work together for the common good,” Chris said. “The whole tone of the meeting changed.” 

That’s listening to understand in action. It transferred their pain into a foundation for partnership instead of a barrier. 

In baseball, we talk about great teams being more than the sum of their stats. After my conversation with Chris Kolenda, I’m more convinced than ever that the same is true for every team, every company, every community….and that we really are better together, if we’re willing to do the work.

Listen to the full interview here or tune in to Rounding the Bases every Tuesday, available wherever you get your podcasts.

LEARN MORE ABOUT being better together FROM JOEL 

Book Joel Goldberg for your next corporate event. He draws on over 30 years of experience as a sports broadcaster. In addition, he brings unique perspectives and lessons learned from some of the world’s most successful organizations. Whatever your profession, Joel is the keynote speaker who can help your team achieve a championship state of mind.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Joel Goldberg 0:01

Welcome into Rounding the Bases, presented by Community America Credit Union: Invested in You. Got a great guest today. Want to give a quick shout out, as always, to my friends at Chief of Staff Kansas City. Whether you're in Kansas City or you're not, my guest is not actually. He's out of the country. But if you're somewhere in the U.S. you're looking for a job, you're looking to hire someone, you're looking for a great resource in an office that really believes in people and culture. I highly recommend that you reach out. ChiefofStaffKC. com. Making Connections That Matter. My guest and my connection today came from both of us being in a in a great group, a coaching group, if you will, and someone that I've had the chance to get to know over the last year and a half as a friend, I could vouch for him being a good friend. But I'll share some of the resume and the credentials with you, which are truly incredible and make for an amazing guest. Today on Round of the Bases, I'm joined by an internationally renowned leader who is both a warrior and a diplomat. Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Chris Kalenda is the former Taliban negotiator who defied conventional wisdom to become a hero. He wouldn't say that, by the way, just me. And still, he continued to climb as a civilian. Chris is founder of the Strategic Leaders Academy, where he helps extraordinary people gain dramatic wins in the simplest ways possible, because for people committed to always getting better, determination should be the only thing between them and their destiny. I could go on and on about his credentials, and he'll downplay them, or I don't know if he'll downplay them. But as I welcome Chris in, I know that you would never bring them up. If if anyone met you today, they just say, "What a great guy! What a what a nice guy to meet. Oh, by the way, there's this decorated history of military service and diplomacy and much more going on right now. Not just with you, but in your family. First off, Chris, how are you?

Chris Kolenda 1:56

Joel, thank you so much. Yeah, the Army had a sense of humor and just let me keep going, which was fabulous. And greetings from Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. So you can hear a little echoey. We haven't gotten our household stuff yet. My wife is a you mentioned her. She is a U.S. diplomat and a foreign service officer, U.S. diplomat, and aside here in Ciudad Juarez at the at the U.S. consulate here on the border with yeah with El Paso. So so yeah, that brings me here.

Joel Goldberg 2:31

First off, if you haven't figured it out yet, Chris is very humble, and so I'll I'll do the bragging on you and let you leave us with the lessons which you're so good with. But I will let you brag a little bit more with your wife because I remember when you told our our coaching group led by Michelle Villalobos, the the amazing Michelle Villalobos, who has been a guest on this podcast before, and I remember when you told everybody, yeah, we're we're moving from Wisconsin. Well, we got to go to DC first because that's what happens, you know, when you're when you're moving somewhere as part of consulate, embassy, however, I should be saying that. And, and when you live in that world, this is a normal thing. Most of us, all we know about that is what we've seen on TV or books or movies or that type of stuff, and we don't really know how that world works, but we thought, "Wow!" I'm speaking for the whole group. I shouldn't be, but, "Wow! You guys are gonna pick up and move to Mexico." Actually, there was a point where I don't think you knew where you were going yet, but just that you were going there, and now you have picked up your lives, and you made that stop in D.C. and and then I think probably the three of you, the third being your dog, end up in in Mexico. How how does that all work, or what is she doing down there?

Chris Kolenda 3:50

She, she's as a U.S. diplomat. One of the things that diplomats do is they, they they interview people for immigrant visas, and so that's that's her main job is. Immigrant visas. And the way she describes it is, she helps families get back together, reconnect. Now, they've got to, they've got to meet all the criteria and all the gates, which are really really important. And when they do, she gets to bring those families back together, and and it's and it's pretty special. And she also holds the line when when those yeah when those applicants you know don't meet all the criteria. So it's really, really important important role for her. And yeah, she's excited. She spent 15 years in the government in the Department of Defense beforehand, and then had a gap of about six and a half years, and then the Foreign Service said, "Hey, we're selecting you to be a diplomat, and we want you to come come to train. And so it was our lives turned upside down at that point. But we, yeah, we'd all been used to used to. To moving and living in different parts of the world, and so it was just like, all right, I feel great that I'm in a position where I can support her career, and this is something that she's wanted to do for many years.

Joel Goldberg 5:13

So cool for you to be able to to ride alongside of her, and I think probably for many years she rode alongside of you, and and vice versa. Of course, can't really ride along someone when they're knee deep in the middle of Afghanistan or wherever you were in Afghanistan. And I I think that for those that served, and I have plenty of friends that did, they have images, they have feelings, they they whether it's the, you know, the heat or whatever it is that that that can bring you back to Afghanistan, I don't know that I've ever heard anybody describe it in the greatest of ways. I don't know that everybody just has described it as totally awful, but I've tended to hear it more on the negative side than the positive side. But you go where you go, and that's part of the mission, and that's part of what you signed up for, and and you live that life as well. I think what's so interesting for me about you is that you spent all that time serving our country, and you're now taking all of those lessons that you learned in being a leader, being in some of the most intense situations, and you're now helping shape others in your civilian life. And so, I want to talk about your business, the really cool stuff that you're doing stateside and around the world, for that matter. And we'll get into that in a moment. But let's let's go to your background a little bit again. I know how humble you are, but let's be honest. Most of us have not been face to face with the Taliban. Most of us have not negotiated the way you did. I I know, Chris, that work is work. Like on in this on the simplest level, people make out what I do as being much bigger than it is. I just talk on TV, but I think that anytime we have jobs that people think they know what it is, or they've seen it somewhere...on TV, in a book, in a movie, or whatever, it's just easier to grasp onto than oh, I'm I'm in marketing, I'm in sales. You know, it seems so broad, right? But but we don't really know what it is. People don't know what I actually do on TV, which is much less, by the way, than anyone serving in the military. But what what were those days like? What what were you what were you doing over there with the Taliban and in Afghanistan a lifetime ago?

Chris Kolenda 7:39

So I had multiple tours in Afghanistan, and the first one was as a ground force commander. Led a group of about 800 paratroopers, partnered with about 500 Afghan National Army soldiers, and we were serving in an area about the size of the state of Rhode Island, and probably 250 to 300,000 civilians, local people, lived lived in that area, and it was right along the Pakistan border. In the summer of 2007, it was one of the deadliest areas of the country, and and so that's what we walked into. And 15 months later, so it was a 450 day deployment in one of the deadliest areas of the country. Also, one of the most beautiful. I mean, we're in the Hindu Kush mountains; these just absolutely spectacular valleys, extraordinary people, extraordinary conditions, and after 450 days, the biggest insurgent group in the area had stopped fighting us and became allies. And it was the only time it happened in the history of the war, to my knowledge, and and of course that then later led to no good deed goes unpunished, and the the Secretary of Defense asked me to be his personal representative in talks with the we had with the Taliban in 2011, 2012. One of the, one of the incidents in Afghanistan, I think, is illustrative, you know. As I mean, just in terms of the importance of things like culture and and how it's easily transferable into business, and I'd be delighted to to give you that that brief example. We were, so this was this is about halfway through our tour, and we had a patrol that was in a, in an area patrolling at you know at night in a area where we knew that there was there was militant enemy activity, and we see about 15 enemy soldiers, armed to the teeth, go into this, go into this building. This compound. And so this is, these clearly bad guys and very clearly putting our people at risk because eventually they're gonna, they're gonna come out, and and so the ground force commander there called for a bomb strike, and it was valid military target. Would have, would have ended that threat immediately, and I had to approve any bomb strike, and one of my soldiers came up to me, and he said, "Hey, boss, something doesn't feel quite right about this. And I said, "Well, Ted, his name is Ted Kennedy. Ted, what do you mean? He said, "There's something in the courtyard of this building. I, I don't know what it is, but I think it's significant. And one of our junior soldiers, who is one of our radio operators in the command post, we're all looking at this drone feed, trying to figure out what this is, and he says, "It looks like laundry. Looks like laundry that's out there drying. This is one a.m. or something like that, and and the ground force that they'd been watching this compound for hours had no no activity of of any movement any people in the building, but there was that that what looked to be like laundry, and and so if that was the case, it meant the building was occupied. There's somebody living there, and civilian casualties were something that we desperately worked to avoid because they just simply push people into the arms of the militants. And and so we huddled and said, okay, well, if it's if it's laundering, there's somebody living there, we need to wait till they come out. And so we talked to the to the person on the ground who called for the bomb strike, and and when we gave him the rest of the information, he was like, "Okay, I understand. And he set up a essentially set up a an ambush, waiting for them to to come out and get clear of the house. And several hours later, they came out, and you know that all happened, and what was interesting about that is a couple hours later, early morning, there are about six kids playing in the courtyard, and people taking down the laundry.

Joel Goldberg 12:35

Wow.

Chris Kolenda 12:37

And it turns out also that the person that lived there, the the the owner was a respected judge, who later, a couple months later, I met. He knew what happened and he thanked me, suspecting that yeah we could have we could have struck the house and we didn't. He thanked me, and he became one of the key interlocutors that moved this insurgent group into stopping fighting and becoming allies. And it's just an example of, you know, Ted had the psychological confidence to come up to me and say something's not quite right. And and so developing that culture in business where people are willing to, you know, to to flag problems, to offer new ideas is absolutely vital. And and and so the culture that we had created in Times of Peace is the one that we take into you know into combat, and that was just one example of of that culture coming to fruition.

Joel Goldberg 13:48

Well, and there's a reminder too. I mean, for me at least, what I'm hearing is a few different lessons. One is that you got to listen to your gut and your instincts sometimes, not just on a whim, but if if there's something that you feel strongly about, at least if Ted never says anything, we're talking about a totally different situation here, and the loss of innocent lives, which I understand in the in the heat of battle sometimes is is going to happen. But what if it's preventable? But then there's the trickle down effect too. I mean, this had long-standing impact afterwards, without the intent being there. That it sounds to me like it it helped facilitate a very productive relationship that enabled you guys to be able to do more of what you may not have been able to do or might have had to go about it a different way.

Chris Kolenda 14:42

Yeah. Well, you're exactly right. And and how often do people, do our employees self-censor? Imagine if Ted had self-censored that day, and if the radio operator had not spoken up, it might as as you mentioned it. Might have been a very different outcome. So, how often are people self-censoring or just saying what the boss or or somebody wants to hear? And then, how do you change that within an organization becomes becomes vital?

Joel Goldberg 15:15

You know, and it's a reminder to me too. I mean, on the basic level, there's so much of the work that we do today, this is different, but but it's the same concept. That so much of the work that we do today, I'm thinking about planting seeds and relationships and connections. So much of the work that we do today, we don't know how it's going to pay off later, and it may not, but oftentimes it does. And and I'm wondering in that moment, I'm guessing that there was a light bulb moment for you, or or something that said, ah, Ted was right. We were right. We just saved lives. And then later on, to see the extra impact that it had beyond the obvious and powerful preservation of life of innocent life, is to understand that that built a connection with that judge. And and I'm curious about that, and then we'll talk about your business. But I've wondered this often, and talked to a lot of people about this that that served in places like Afghanistan. That you're in the relationship building business, and that to me is so pertinent to to business, my business of television, certainly of speaking, and and and what any of us do, but building relationships in different cultures. What works here may not work over in Afghanistan. I wouldn't have the slightest clue how it worked in Afghanistan. All I know is that anywhere that I've ever traveled around the world, which is nothing compared to you. But I've been to some places. I've always had the understanding and the perception that I need to figure out how they do it here, not how we do it back at home, but how we do it here. As much as I would expect them to try to figure out how we do it here, and sometimes it's subtle things that could seem totally innocent, but might be completely offensive. My my brother served in the Peace Corps back in the mid '90s. I'm working in Madison, Wisconsin. At that point, I went over and visited him in West Africa, small country with with a lot of issues too. Country by the name of Togo in West Africa, in between Benin and Ghana, and I, he gave me a list. If you do this, it's viewed as being disrespectful. If you do that, what do you mean it's being disrespectful? I'm little things like I'll get too much detail here. You eat with your right hand because the left hand is used for when you're in the bathroom and like what what like don't you? So it's a long way of me asking how you came to understand the Afghani culture, which I'm guessing might have varied based on the locations you were at to it. Well, it might not have been across the board, and how you were able to build that respect and trust and connection with those that maybe had their their guard up at all times.

Chris Kolenda 18:05

Yeah. Well, 100% I mean, imagine if you had a foreign military in your community. You know, a very uncomfortable situation, and and so I mean, of course, you've got to meet people where they are, and and work to build bridges, understand their perspective. I mean, empathy was a was a huge strategic skill for us. You've got people who are living literally on the other side of the planet, different culture, different language, different religion. The area was so impoverished, Joel, that people were too poor to have trash. No running water, no no flush toilets, no electricity. This is this is a very, very vastly different from our experience, and we had to understand. We had to take the time to understand their history, and their perspective, and their point of view. So it's it's the age-old saying, you know, of seek to understand before you seek to be understood, and I I remember I I found on Amazon it's amazing I found on Amazon the only book written about that area, and it's a book called Kafir's the Hindu Kush. Kafirs meant unbelievers because in that area of Afghanistan, Nuristan, they were the last to convert to Islam, and this happened in in the mid or late 18-, 1890s. The person who wrote this book was a British explorer named Lord George Robertson, and he's writing about the people and the tribes and the clans, and and so I'm really. This with utter fascination because as much as things change, so much it'll remain the same, and and I'm reading about different personalities. And I went up to I was having a meeting with some of the elders in that area, and that was the most the most challenging area that that we faced. I was meeting with some of the elders there, and and I said, "Hey, tell me about this person named Torag Meroch. Now, this is 120 years earlier, and one of the guys's eyes light up, and he says, "Torak Meroch, he's my great great grandfather. My clan Merikdari is named after him. How do you know this name? And I said, Well, I'm reading this book, and he knew about the book, and he said it must be this book. You know, of course, it's all through a translator, and and I said, yeah, I want to learn about you know about your history and your community, word spreads like wildfire that I'm interested in them and their history, and and so the more we learn, the better questions we ask, the better questions we ask, the more information that we got, and and the better we're able to be strategic partners with communities. It's it's it's just like a a CEO in a in a in a community or in a business. The more you know about the community that you're working with, the better questions you ask, and the better you can be a strategic partner with you know with your stakeholders.

Joel Goldberg 21:37

I'll boil it down simply this way, and and and and I knew this to be true, but I know it even more to be true after the story that you just told. This is universal. There there are very few elements that are universal across the world in terms of culture. One I always say I might be wrong somewhere. I don't know, is that a smile can be interpreted or understood in any language. I've always said to athletes that I'm interviewing, if they're willing to speak without a translator, if they're from another country, that you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be close to it. But if you if you smile a little bit, people understand that, and and that that's universal. Maybe that's not true everywhere, but it generally tends to to warm people up a little bit. And the other piece is that we all want to know that someone's interested. That if even with a translator, that if someone takes interest in something that matters to us, current, past, personal, that means something, and I'm guessing that the people that you were talking to over there had never had that happen to them before, or not to that level. And it all it took was one person, and maybe a stroke of luck that this wasn't just a figure that was known; it was family. It was past family, and I'm guessing that that opened up a lot of doors for you.

Chris Kolenda 23:08

Oh, absolutely! I mean, everybody wants to feel valued and wants to do something that they believe is valuable, and and if you can bring those things together, you've got something really, really special. Whether it's in the workforce or whether it's working with people on the, you know, of a completely different culture on the other side of the planet, and so so our principle was start with where you agree, and work from there. So so we looked at where are places that we could agree and we could work together for common objectives, and one of those was was schools for kids. I mean, I don't care your politics, your religion, your language, what country you're from. We all want what's best for our kids, and and in you know one of the big breakthrough examples happened when when we learned that this particular village that had been shooting rockets at us had longstanding grievances that had nothing to do with us, but since we were Americans in the area, that's, that was the retaliation. We found out that they wanted that school was valuable to them. That they really wanted their kids to go to school, and they didn't have they didn't have a school. They had a three wall building where 250 girls went in the morning and 300 boys went in the afternoon, and they had one little tiny chalkboard that was about the size of your monarch's pennant there, and so one kid could write the chalkboard. Everybody else drew numbers and letters in dirt with a stick. And so we found out about this, and and we sent truckloads of school supplies to them, just notebooks and pens. And the next day, I had no idea how they would respond. The next day, a group of elders shows up at the outpost, and I get a call. Hey, the bunch of elders are here to see you. Like, wasn't expecting anybody. Where are they from? It's like, well, they're from this village, and and so of course we we met, and as we're going around greeting everybody, the head elder hands me a stack of papers. I have no idea what this is going to be, list of grievances or whatever, and so a little apprehensive as I took them, and I and I said, "What is this? And he said, "These are thank you notes written by our children using the notebooks and pens that you gave them. And my heart just starts to ah, you just feel that heart melting, and he says there would be more, but most of the kids didn't think their handwriting was good enough for you, and and it was. I mean, that was just such a breakthrough moment where we spent the rest of the day together. We talked about, again, where we could build bridges, where we could build, you know, start with where we agreed, and and and school was a thing that was their number one priority. So we worked with a, we worked with a nonprofit that that built schools, and they worked together with the elders who donated land, labor, materials, everything, and they built that school, and it's still standing to this day. They've defended it against militant attacks, and we never got another rocket from that area. And whenever I'd visit Kabul in the subsequent years, they would always take the about a 24 hour trip to to come say hello.

Joel Goldberg 27:03

Wow. I mean, that's life changing for for everybody involved, including you and all of your people. Last question before I talk a little bit more about your business. When you go to sit down face to face and negotiate with the Taliban, this is a really maybe a really Naive question, you know. You strike me as as not just a humble guy, but a confident guy. Not strike me. I mean, I know you are. Are there nerves when you sit down there? Is there fear? Is there, you built these relationships. You had to have been the right man for the moment, and a reminder that so much of the work that you put in can lead later to the results that you want. What what was going through your mind? What what was it like? Again, anybody listening, I think is going to picture. You know, you sitting across the room from from I don't know some tough looking guys in some dark room, or I-I don't know what what picture is painted in your head. What what emotions or memories do you feel when I ask you about that?

Chris Kolenda 28:13

So the the I guess the the most dangerous conversations were when I was the ground force commander out there, because you're just-I mean, you're, you're just, you're out there in the countryside, and you're meeting with people, and especially when you're meeting on their turf. And the one thing that we knew about Afghan culture was when you are considered a guest, that they are honor bound to protect you, and so whenever somebody would invite us, we would ask, "Are you inviting us to be your guest? And they would say yes, and so we knew. And the the the scariest time we tested this proposition. It's one of the first times. One of my captains, his name is Joey, and he and he was his outpost was in this most dangerous area, and Joey had been working for like weeks and weeks and weeks to get a meeting with the elders, and they finally agreed. Finally agreed. Invited him to dinner at one of the elders' homes, and so Joey, knowing that he'd been invited as a guest, took off his helmet, took off his body armor, handed his weapons to his his patrol, and walked with his interpreter, clothed, you know, just just his uniform into this into this house. First time he ever tested this proposition, didn't know whether he's going to come out dead or alive, and and the elders, they were, I mean, they just started letting him have it. Telling him about all of the grievances, all the past problems, et cetera, and so forth. And Joey, this is just it was it was a thing of beauty. Joey listened to what they said and reflected back to them what he was, what they were telling him. Oh, so I understand that there were these civilian casualty incidents in the past, and you know, there's predatory behavior by the government, and and so the more he would reflect back to them what they were saying to make sure he understood this is all going through an interpreter. They temperature starts to lower, and they're like, "This guy's really hearing us, and then Joey says, "You know, I can't change the past. I'm sorry all this happened to you. And if this happened in my neighborhood, I would have done the exact same thing you are. I can't change the past, but what we can figure out is how we work together for the Common good, and the whole tone of the meeting changed, and everything started talking about. All right, well, here's how we can work together, and it was it was one of those transformative events, and it was all because Joey knew how to listen and to seek to to to understand before trying to be understood.

Joel Goldberg 31:25

Oh, I, I, I mean, I get nervous just thinking about Joey walking in there.

Chris Kolenda 31:32

Yeah, right. Yeah, the negotiations with the with the Taliban now those were a little bit different. Yeah, with the Taliban senior leadership, so we would meet in Germany or or Doha, and and it's a you know much different controlled environment. We're all in a you know diplomatic mission. I mean, I've always found dealing with the Taliban to be very very straightforward. They they tell you what's on their mind. They tell you what they what they want, and and and so yeah, I've and I've continued informal negotiations with them, 2017, 2018, and and and and beyond to try to continue building those bridges and try to get you know formal peace process going, so I found them to be pretty straightforward negotiators.

Joel Goldberg 33:02

So, I want to talk about your business, Strategic Leaders Academy, and you're you're helping so many leaders and doing it in really cool and unique ways, and we'll get into that. But are so much of what you just told me, I think, can help leaders, and they're not sitting across from the Taliban. They're they're not, you know, in life and death situations. Hopefully. Yet I know that one of your many gifts is to take the lessons learned and help people become better at what they do, and they don't have to be in Afghanistan or in combat to do that. So what are some of the lessons that you've been able to to pull from those times that enable you to share perspectives and help leaders with whatever they're going through right now?

Chris Kolenda 33:55

Yeah, I mean, a couple things spring to mind right away, just based on what you what you said. The first one is what I call listening to understand, and we had trained beforehand to you know to to do this, right? Where there there are really four modes of listening. You know, mode number one is distracted listening. So you can imagine distracted listening. Somebody looking at their phone, you know, and-

Joel Goldberg 34:20

Wait, does that happen ever?

Chris Kolenda 34:22

Oh my goodness, yeah. And and so like whatever whatever weird things going on in social media and whatever's popping up in your notifications is more important than the person in front of you. And and you know how that makes people feel. The second mode of listening is listening to respond. So in listening to respond, you're in a conversation, and then somebody says something that triggers you to start formulating a response. And while you're formulating your response in your head, the other person's still talking, and that internal process again. Override the external one, and you're going to miss everything else they had to say. Most of the communication problems that I saw in the White House Situation Room, for example, was everybody around the tables listening to respond and talking past each other. The third mode is is listening to win. Now, listening to win is where you are listening for something that you can then jump on to show how how smart you are and how wrong the other person is, and you can imagine the effect of that. Method number four is listening to understand, and listening to understand is a very simple three-step process. So, mind if I draw a quick diagram?

Joel Goldberg 35:45

Yeah, go ahead. And I'll describe, and you describe. For anyone that is watching on YouTube, you can you can see this. Here's Chris in action right now, and and and you can describe what you're doing, or I'll give the play-by-play as well for anyone listening.

Chris Kolenda 35:57

Oh, nobody does play-by-play better than you.

Joel Goldberg 36:38

No, no, no. That's not true.

Chris Kolenda 36:02

All right. So listening to understand is a three-step process. Step one is somebody's going to tell you what's on their mind. They're going to state their point of view. They're going to state their opinion. The second step is you restate. I think what I heard you tell me is this. Did I get that about right? And if they say no, then they'll they'll restate what you what you what you didn't get quite right. And so oh oh now I understand. So what you meant was this. Yes, that's.

Joel Goldberg 37:06

But isn't there isn't there's also something there? I think Chris, too, I'm doing it right now as I'm responding to you. That confirmed. I mean, yes, it's a fair question. You want to make sure, but it also I think lets the person know. Yeah, I'm interested and I'm listening.

Chris Kolenda 37:39

100%. That's that's that's exactly right. So the other person feels hurt, and so when they say that's exactly right, then you go to step three, which is okay. Well, let's let's explore your point of view. Let's ask some open-ended questions. So let's ask some What questions and some How questions and some What If questions to explore that person's point of view, and maybe they hadn't fully thought through it the entire way. What it shows is I'm being heard, and this person is, this person's interested in what I have to say, and so they're going to be more likely. Just like Ted in the earlier example, they're going to be more likely to come up and say, "Hey, boss, there's something that I think you should know before we do X, Y, or Z,

Joel Goldberg 38:29

Because he knows you're going to hear him.

Chris Kolenda 38:31

Exactly. Now you could then flip this around and let's say that you're the CEO of a company and you are giving guidance. I mean, how often do do we think that we conveyed one thing, but somebody else took away something different? According to a Harris poll, the average company loses eight hours per employee per week simply due to miscommunication.

Joel Goldberg 39:01

Ugh.

Chris Kolenda 39:01

So, so this process is a great way to get that time back, and so in this case, as the CEO or the leader, you're you're going to be the ones that stating your guidance, and I encourage leaders to use the four Ws: Who's responsible, What you want them to do, the two magic words so that, to make sure that you communicate the why, the results and outcomes that you Want, and then by When. So those are the four Ws, and and then so you convey that, and then you ask your direct report essentially for a readback. So tell me, tell me how you feel about this, and what are your initial concerns and and needs, and so when they do this, like call a confirmation brief, and they read back to you, okay, well here's my initial plan, here are the obstacles I expect to face. You're going to know whether they're on the right page or not, and if they're not, you carefully redirect. And if they are, it's like okay, let's come back to me in 24 hours, 48 hours. You know, with with your game plan and all the resources you need to make this successful. And then, boom, you've closed the loop, or you ask open-ended questions. So tell me about how you want to go about this, and what if that, and and and so you're essentially using the exact same three-step process to convey guidance, and it will reduce those communication errors substantially.

Joel Goldberg 40:37

So this is so much of what the people you work with are receiving. As founder of the Strategic Leaders Academy, before I get to my baseball theme questions, just just a little bit. I mean, you do so many cool things, and and also marrying your your deep love of history and all the studies that you put in. By the way, Chris is also a PhD. I don't know how many titles we can we can give him, but but they're all earned. And and again, you're. I don't think you ever mentioned any of those to me. I just kind of found out in in conversations. That's the kind of guy that you are. But the the the work that you're doing with a lot of your clients and some really cool trips. I don't know how to sum it all up because there's a lot, but but you talk about that. There's so many, you know, amazing coaching groups and and and groups and people in your shoes. But I really think that you're doing some some truly unique things, and I'm wondering if you could sum that up a little bit.

Chris Kolenda 41:35

Absolutely. One of the things that I do with organizations is do offsites at U.S. battlefields or international battlefields. So, Antietam and Gettysburg is one that I do with a lot of companies, and it's not a history tour. You'll certainly talk about the history and the extraordinary leadership and decision making and culture there as illustrative examples to talk about the exact objectives for your business, and so then we'll relate the theme to business story, and then we'll co-create visual models right on site, so that you have you have like takeaways for how do you gain buy-in? How do you how do you manage conflict? How do you create the psychological confidence where people are willing to offer fresh ideas and flag problems? So you come away from that with this emotionally resonant experience that is 100% relative to, relevant to your business with actions that you can implement on Monday when you get back, and and it's something that your participants, because the emotional resonance, will remember for the rest of their lives. Now compare that to the hotel board room where it's death by PowerPoint. So Normandy is also something that we do, or national parks. So, just getting people outside in these mostly resonant places is great. And then, oftentimes, there's follow through in terms of individual coaching, consulting, helping people build culture and things like that that I do. And ultimately, I like to help leaders reduce dependency on them, so that when people just like just like Ted solving problem and Joey solving problems, making decisions, and thinking ahead, that frees you, the leader, to focus on the future and creating the deep enduring prosperity that your families and your employees and your customers and partners deserve.

Joel Goldberg 43:51

Incredibly valuable, major impact. If you want to learn more, you should learn more. You should want to learn more. Best place, ChrisKolenda.com. We'll have it in the show notes. Chris Colenda, K O L E N D A.com, He is three time author. I'll ask about the books in a moment. Inducted into the Million Dollar Consultant Hall of Fame. I want to get to my baseball theme questions first, though. So, in your long, illustrious career, and I think you have a lot of home runs still awaiting you. What's the biggest home run you've hit, professionally speaking?

Chris Kolenda 44:28

Ooh, I was you know I was thinking I knew you asked this question, and so I was thinking about I was thinking about my my reply, and my my initial thought was well, we talk about the the the big insurgent group stop fighting and switching sides. I actually the thing I learned the most. I was a pitcher in high school, and and and early in college, and I had I was I was I was tiny, and so I was maybe bringing a fastball in the mid 80s. I had a curveball that was unhittable, but my coaches and everyone was were so fixated on velocity that I I began overthrowing my curveball, and you know when you put too much on the curveball, it hangs, and and so we were, I had I had like a point two five ERA in the regular season, and then we go into the playoffs, and I'm like you know trying to you know in in in relief, and I'm over I overthrow a curveball, and this guy, one of the best athletes in Omaha at the time, hits that thing so hard. I think it's still going.

Joel Goldberg 45:50

Hasn't landed yet.

Chris Kolenda 45:50

It hasn't landed yet. And and what I learned from that is is when you over-index on a single variable, you can wind up screwing up a lot of things. And and so that was a I guess that was a home run lesson for me is is knowing that life is more than just a single variable, and bringing things together, building bridges is the is the vital thing to to keep in a healthy balance.

Joel Goldberg 46:17

That is such a deep home run because it's so different than what I usually hear of a of a big moment, and and this was a moment, a teachable moment that led to a a greater home run, a concept in life and business that that I think is so valuable. How about a swing and a miss, and what did you learn from it?

Chris Kolenda 46:37

Swing and a miss. I I've made most of the available mistakes as a leader, and so I like to say that my my painful mistakes are everybody's shortcut to success. This so as a as a lieutenant, lieutenant tank platoon leader on the old East West German border, and I was inspecting my tanks pre combat inspection, and my job as a leader to make sure the tanks are ready to go. And I I look at I get to one of my tanks and I look at the the gunner. His name is name was Thomas Klein. He was we called him Tiny because he was the I think the the European powerlifting champion. I mean, this guy was huge, and I said, "Tiny, did you check the oils? He says, "Yes, sir, I did. I said, "All right, let's let's check it out. So I jumped up on the tank, you know, pulled off the back plates, you know, let's check the oils, and I did. And afterwards, he says, he says, you know that that was really messed up. What do you mean? It's a pre-combat inspection. My job's to check. He says, "Yeah, it's your job to check, and I want you to check. But when you said, "Did you check the oils? and I said yes, and then you went in to check behind me, that meant that you you didn't trust me, that you thought I was I was lying, or that I'm incompetent, and none of that makes me feel good. And I'm like what do what do you want me to do? He says, check it. Don't ask me about it. And and and so I yeah I learned from that like how we do things. You know, it's not what always what we do. A lot of leadership training focuses on what to do? Very little of it focuses on how to do, and that's I think one of my superpowers is is the how to do because it's vital.

Joel Goldberg 48:29

Yeah, I so often say just in my baseball world, like it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So, and you you can you can say the same thing, but say it in a different way, and it could be heard completely different. And that's that's essentially what happened for you there. Okay, the last baseball theme question: Small ball, the little things that add up to big results, the little things that make good leaders. However, you want to look at that. What is small ball to you?

Chris Kolenda 48:57

Yeah, small ball is doing the doing little things right. You can have the best strategy in the world and the best ideas, but if you don't do the things that bring out the best in your employees, so they contribute your best, you know that strategy is going nowhere. And you can look at it as like an oak tree, where we we we tend to get fixated on the leaves and the acorns, and we want to harvest those. They're all really important, but really the power from the oak tree is in the roots and in the trunk, and the roots in the trunk don't produce the acorns, but the acorns aren't possible without it. And and and so the small ball is are the roots and all of the things you know involved in the trunk that enable that organization, whether that's the oak tree or the or your company to to bloom.

Joel Goldberg 50:00

Well said. Love that. What a great piece of advice and small ball. I like to wrap things up with four final questions as we round the bases. Let's start with this one and something that I know you are as passionate about as anything that you do. You're the founder of the Saber Six Foundation, helping Gold Star families pursue their American dreams. I know that you put and continue to put so much of your heart and your time amidst everything else that you have going on into the Saber Six Foundation. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Chris Kolenda 50:34

Yeah, thank you so much for asking. It's a nonprofit that I founded a few years ago. I did a 1700 mile bicycle ride to visit the graves of the six troopers from our unit who were killed in action, and and we raised enough money to start the foundation, and our focus is in helping veterans turn post combat stress into growth. the The numbers are staggering. Since 9/11, over 150,000 veterans have died by suicide, and that doesn't count the overdoses, recklessness, and other deaths of despair. When you add all of those together, you could fill Arrowhead Stadium twice and still have people waiting inside, or waiting waiting in line to get inside, and and so our approach is focuses on growth, and an ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure, and so giving people very simple strategies to strengthen purpose, belonging, and well being, and sustain that over time is is is what we do, and for the people involved in our programs, this is since 2022. No suicides, no overdoses, no attempts. So we're very proud of that, and think we're onto we've got a we've got a model that is is very special.

Joel Goldberg 51:59

Yeah, it's it's perhaps the most important work that you're doing, and such an impact. So, I know I've heard you so passionately talk about that. I'm glad that you did here as well. My second question, as we round the bases, you've been an advisor to three four-star generals, an advisor to two secretaries of State, at the risk of sounding like I'm lumping everyone in together, because I know just like anything else in life, everybody's different. But is there a commonality to that level of leadership, to that level of Secretary of State, a four-star general? Again, people that most of us civilians and everyday folks will never meet. You know, hey, in my job, I get a chance to shake hands and rub elbows with some pretty high-level people. Had a guest recently on this podcast that you know very well, retired three-star general Milford "Beags" Beagle and guys like that ooze leadership. You just want to be a fly on the wall, even if you're welcome in there, just to be able to take it all in. Yet, you had to be an advisor to them. Not had to be. You were an advisor to them too. It's not just being a fly on the wall. You are helping them. Is there any kind of commonality when you get to that level of leader?

Chris Kolenda 53:24

For the for the ones that were most effective, and I was blessed to to work with, advise you know Generals McChrystal, Petraeus, Dunford, advise Secretaries of Defense like you know Gates and Panetta and and Hegel, and one of the things they all had in common is that they they wanted to hear the they wanted to hear the truth. They wanted to hear my opinion. They didn't want me to tell them what they wanted to hear. They wanted me to tell them the truth. I remember one time, and this is about the the utility of negotiating with the Taliban, and and I'm having this discussion with with Secretary Panetta in his office after one of our one of our meetings and and and and we're going back and forth. I mean, pretty hard because you know he he was you know he was really challenging me, and I'm I'm pushing back on him, and and and so we we we end and you know we we essentially agreed to disagree. You know he agreed that we should continue these talks. He didn't, he was less optimistic than I was that that they were negotiating in good faith, and and and so I left that meeting. I was just like, "Oh my goodness, I'm I'm so done. I'm going to be fired. I got into an argument with the Secretary of Defense in his office. Like, what are you possibly thinking? And and and I get home, and it's like 10 o'clock at night, and I get an email from his chief of staff. I was like, "This is it. I'm fired. I'm done. And and I open an email with great trepidation, and he says, "You know, there are 20,000 people in this building who will agree with anything the secretary says, and the fact that you stood your ground and you stood up to him and challenged his thinking, he found absolutely invaluable, and just wanted me to thank you.

Joel Goldberg 55:22

Wow.

Chris Kolenda 55:22

And they, you know, I, I found that all of them, you know, were like that. They wanted to, you know, you know, they asked me to be their advisor for a reason, and it wasn't just to agree with them.

Joel Goldberg 55:36

What a story! That's great. Third question, and by the way, all those all those high level leaders had something that you described earlier. They they wanted to hear what you had to say, and I know you were the advisor, but that doesn't mean they have to listen to you. And so they practiced a lot of what you were already talking about before. Third question: Three-time author, Leadership: The Warriors Art, The Counterinsurgency Challenge, and Zero Sum Victory: What We're Getting Wrong About War. Also featured in many other books. My third question: I just I wanted to ask maybe a different version regarding your third book, Zero Sum Victory: What We're Getting Wrong About War, or we can just say conflict in general. Not asking you as we speak right now, and I don't know where things will be when this airs in a few weeks. Even if it, whatever the timeline is, I'm not asking you to to solve what's going on in Iran or any other conflict in in this world, other than to ask you the question in this way: What are we getting wrong about? Doesn't have to be that war, but war conflict in general. That could be in the office, by the way. That could be on the battlefield. Is is there a common theme or something that that we could pay attention to?

Chris Kolenda 56:50

Absolutely. I looked at the three, our three biggest recent interventions: Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and asked what are are there common themes here? Because you know one one disaster is a you know is a terrible tragedy. You know two disasters are a horrible accident. Three disasters, that's a pattern of behavior. So what are the what are the patterns? And I mean, our our soldiers on the ground are they do what we're asking them to do, and they're doing it to a high standard in all three conflicts. And yes, there are you know there are challenges. By and large, people are doing things to a very high standard. It's at the policy and strategy levels where we're letting them down, and and we tend to, we don't have any organized way of thinking about how you end wars. So it's very easy to get into them. Getting out of them is very hard, and we don't have any doctrine. We don't have a playbook for how we do for how we how we end wars, and and it and it's inducing it's creating three basic errors that are sending us astray. The first one is we we over-index on the military instrument of power in conflicts like those that are more about political legitimacy than they are about military force. Second is we get you get entrapped in these conflicts due to things like bureaucratic silos, miscommunication, confirmation bias, where you think, "Oh, I'm hitting all my milestones, but really you're you're in drift, and because of factors that you're not looking at. And then you know, and and and then third is our our partners are more interested in keeping the conflict going because they're they want to they want to keep American largess moving into the you know into the you know into their pockets. And and and so they will resist any any attempts to you know negotiate or to or to withdraw and so so it helps trap things and and the and we're seeing the challenge play out in in Iran where you know, despite the massive military damage that they've sustained by closing off the Straits of Hormuz, they were able to put themselves in a position of of advantage, and were struggling to negotiate effectively. We the State Department has no has no playbook for wartime negotiations, and so each time we wing it, and where our adversaries are much more skilled.

Joel Goldberg 59:49

It is not easy.

Chris Kolenda 59:50

I hope that wasn't too nerdy.

Joel Goldberg 59:52

No, no, the nerdier the better for me. I, I, I find it all fascinating, and and like you, I, you know, I want lessons to learn. I, that's, we're not going to solve all the world's problems, but we can get better in attempting to do so. My fourth, I'll go a little bit more light on this final walk-off. But here you are now living this life in in Mexico. People would say, "Oh, is it safe? and this and that. And I know you're safe there, and we've clearly established on this podcast you've been in much less safe places around the world than this. But you know, if you don't know your geography, you could look it up. Looks like you're 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe on a drive to El Paso, 12-15, miles, something like that away. Yet you're in another world over there too. What's life like? I know it's still new for you too, but what's what's life like living in Mexico?

Chris Kolenda 1:00:45

In in some ways, because of virtue of Zoom and and online connectivity, it in some ways it's not that much, that much different, at least business wise. My my wife my wife's fluent in Spanish. My Spanish is emerging. I work on it every day, and and so we we try to do as much as we can here in in Juarez, going out to dinner, shopping at the markets, meeting and interacting with people because you know it's it's part of the experience. It'd be very easy just to do everything in El Paso, but we we don't we don't want to do that. We want to we want to get the the culture experience and and learn about you know learn about this you know this culture and this way of life, which you know even though it's just across the the Rio Grande River, it's very very different.

Joel Goldberg 1:01:37

Yeah, I can only imagine. And you and I are recording this by the time it airs in in July. We'll know where this stands, but you and I are recording this the the afternoon after Mexico just advanced to the round of 16 for the first time since 1986, and I can only imagine that it was a little bit loud there last night.

Chris Kolenda 1:01:56

It was, yes, very loud. No traffic because everybody's watching the match, and yeah, it's it's it is so much fun to see the enthusiasm. Everybody's wearing the Mexico jerseys. Nicole's going to be getting us some Mexico jerseys. We want Team USA to prevail. You know, love to see, live to see Mexico. If if it's not Team USA, we'd love to see Mexico. Yeah, bringing it home.

Joel Goldberg 1:02:23

So cool. Yeah, and as we're talking, US plays tonight. So by the time this airs, who knows where things will be? My wife and I and son are are going to see Columbia play at what was and will eventually or soon again be Arrowhead Stadium, but now Kansas City Stadium, and we'll see Columbia and and Ghana playing at the home of Patrick Mahomes, and so just the coolest stuff, and and it feels like it's bringing the world together for us here in Kansas City and in the States. And you get the other perspective on the other side of the river. So, Chris, I knew this would go long. I told you probably 40 minutes. We went an hour. I could go another hour easily with you, and then still feel like we didn't have enough time, but it's always good to catch up with you. I know how busy you've been, and me with baseball. But I look forward to more conversations offline. And thank you so much for sharing so much of your background, lessons, inspiration for people. chriskolenda.com. If you want to learn more about Chris, his business, and and you should sign up for anything he has too, because there's just a lot of great content. Chris, thank you so much for doing this and for being a friend.

Chris Kolenda 1:03:30

Thank you so much, Joel. I appreciate you and love being a guest, and love being your friend.