Dr. Cindy McGovern: “De-Icking” Sales as a Profession

I’ve long believed that the secret to influence is giving to grow. The idea of sowing favors instead of collecting them is a practical strategy rooted in human psychology, reciprocity and integrity. And when you offer value with intention instead of expectation, you set a cycle into motion that I have found returns far more than you ever imagined. 

Every time you give to others, whether in time or talent, it’s another opportunity to open doors that remain firmly shut to those who expect an immediate payoff. In my almost 30 years as a sports broadcaster, I’ve seen countless transformational moments that begin with simple acts, and the same has proven true with my keynote speaking. Something as small as respecting a players space or sharing a business resource, though small in isolation, weaves into a larger narrative of loyalty and influence. 

Shifting the paradigm from “What can I get?” to “How much value can I offer?” rewires your mindset to see opportunity in generosity. The idea of giving to grow as a relational strategy is a concept that changed the life of one recent guest on my podcast, Rounding the Bases, who believes every one of us can master the art of sales, whether we carry a quota or not. 

Her name is Dr. Cindy McGovern, a two-time bestselling author, founder of Orange Leaf Consulting and an international authority known around the world as the First Lady of Sales. Her mission is as simple: to show her clients how to create opportunities, using skills they didn’t know they had. 

With a dynamic energy and practical approach, Dr. Cindy has inspired thousands to see sales not as a transaction, but as an opportunity to give in order to grow, so you can win no matter the situation.

SINGLE: breaking down barriers

One prevalent misconception about sales is the image of a used car salesman, marked by pushy tactics that leave you feeling manipulated. Dr. Cindy is passionate about changing this narrative. How? By giving to grow. 

“True sales is understanding what somebody needs and delivering on that,” she said. “I’ve been doing this my whole life, I just didn’t know that.” 

We’ve all had an experience when someone was selling to us and we walked away feeling helped, not hustled. That’s the difference between transactions and relationship-based connections. Dr. Cindy argues that when done right, sales can actually help build relationships that last far beyond any single interaction. 

“We all have this lowest common denominator that we go to when someone says sales,” Dr. Cindy explained. “I want to remove the ickiness that is with that. And by the time I’m done, we’ll need a new word for it.” 

Every job has an element of sales. Whether your business card says sports broadcaster or chief marketing officer, the best ones understand that the core of their job is to serve, not to manipulate. They do this by focusing on solutions more than the budget. They listen more than they talk. And most importantly, they’re willing to walk away if their solution isn’t the right fit. 

DOUBLE: a universal life skill

Dr. Cindy emphasizes that sales are not confined to business alone. Every day we find ourselves in situations when we need to “sell” an idea, even when there is no money changing hands. 

“I wanted to help people to realize that sales is truly a life skill, not just a business skill,” she emphasized. “If I had learned that lesson much earlier in life, it would have probably changed not only my career trajectory, but would have changed, really, everything.” 

She believes that mastering sales is a vital skill, yet somehow, colleges still don’t teach students how to do it. It’s why she wrote her books, Every Job Is A Sales Job and Sell Yourself. In doing so, she has demystified the sales process in a practical way, allowing anyone to build a personal brand or increase their influence.

“If you look at my five steps that I teach of the sale process,” Dr. Cindy told me, “It’s create a plan, look for the right opportunity, build trust, ask and then follow-up.” 

Whether you are advocating for a promotion, convincing your teenager to clean their room or asking for an exclusive interview, each situation requires the same fundamental skills: Understand their needs, present the benefits of your offer, handle objections, and ask for commitment. The only difference is context. 

TRIPLE: the human advantage in a digital era

In an age dominated by technology and AI, Dr. Cindy stresses the importance of trust, interpersonal communication and conflict resolution that used to be the expectation but have now become differentiators. These “power skills”, as she calls them, have become more vital than ever in cutting through the digital noise. 

Here's a sobering statistic from McKinsey & Company's 2024 workplace report: 67% of executives believe that interpersonal skills will become the primary differentiator for career advancement within the next three years. Meanwhile, a study from LinkedIn Learning found that 89% of recruiters say that bad hires typically lack soft skills, not technical competencies.

What does this mean for all of us? That your ability to read a room, build rapport, and yes, sell ideas, is becoming your professional superpower. While AI can write emails and analyze data, giving the warmth of authentic human interactions will still help you get ahead.

“When you can truly connect with another human and you can make that come through,” she said, “That is going to be your advantage.” 

People can smell automation from a mile away. When everyone is using the same tools to reach out, the person who takes the time to craft a genuine, personal message stands out like a lighthouse in a storm. 

HOME RUN: the art of personal branding

Drawing from her own experience, Dr. Cindy shared that sales encompasses all aspects of life. What most people don’t realize is that they already have a personal brand, whether they’ve consciously created it or not. Effectively selling yourself involves not only understanding that brand, but projecting it authentically in every interaction. 

“You’ve got a brand and you’re selling it already,” Dr. Cindy shared. “You might as well do it on purpose, because people have this impression of you anyways.” 

Dr. Cindy got a powerful lesson in perception just before defending her PhD dissertation. A professor warned her that “girls who look like you aren’t supposed to be smart, so when you go into that room, remember that.” It wasn’t meant as an insult, but a strategic coaching moment about the reality of bias. 

“It didn’t matter that I did all of my research . . . What mattered is that I sold it to them, because that was the last chance those people had to tell me whether I earned it or not,” she recalled. “And that was really good advice.” 

The moment taught her that excellence isn’t always enough. Sometimes, you still have to help people see past their initial assumptions to realize your true capabilities. It isn’t about changing who you are, but being intentional about how you present who you are. By giving something authentically human, you earn an advantage that’s difficult to take away. 

Listen to the full interview here or tune in to Rounding the Bases every Tuesday, available wherever you get your podcasts.

LEARN MORE ABOUT giving to grow FROM JOEL 

Book Joel Goldberg for your next corporate event. He draws on over 30 years of experience as a sports broadcaster. In addition, he brings unique perspectives and lessons learned from some of the world’s most successful organizations. Whatever your profession, Joel is the keynote speaker who can help your team achieve a championship state of mind.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Joel Goldberg 0:03

Hey everybody, welcome into another episode of Rounding the Bases presented by Community America Credit Union: Invested in You. Got a fantastic guest today. I always like to call myself on this though. Have I ever come out and said to you, I've got a terrible guest today? No, all my guests are good, and this one, we're we're heading out to the West Coast for. But before we do that, a shout out to my friends, the great partnership that I have with Chief of Staff Kansas City. And you may be listening anywhere around the country or the world for that matter, but if you are looking for a job, looking for a connection, looking to hire, just a good resource, the reason why I do so much with Chief of Staff is a joint belief in culture, in people, in helping others. And so, if you're curious, if you want to know, you can certainly reach out to me. There's nothing in it for me, other than than supporting a great partnership and relationship. But you could check them out at chiefofstaffkc.com. Making Connections That Matter. One of the things that I love about this podcast is the connections that I'm able to make, and then hopefully share those with all of you. And sometimes they're in Kansas City, sometimes they're beyond the network, really, for me has grown all over the country, East Coast, West Coast, certainly in the Midwest and Kansas City. And I think and my guest can tell me if I'm wrong, otherwise, I think that that the connector for me with my guest came from my friend Howie Fleischer here in Kansas City, who introduced me to someone in California. And so my guest has built a career on the belief that every one of us can master the art of sales, whether we carry a quota or not. Say hello to Dr Cindy McGovern, a two-time bestselling author, founder of Orange Leaf Consulting and international authority known around the world as The First Lady of Sales. Her mission is as simple as it is singular: to show her clients how to create opportunities using skills they didn't know they had. With a dynamic energy and practical approach, Dr Cindy has inspired 1000s to see sales not as transaction, but as an opportunity to win at work and in life, no matter the situation. I think that sums up Cindy very well, including the high energy part. I'm joined right now by Dr Cindy, who's got, if you're watching, but if you're not, most are listening. She's got the two books behind that happen to be orange. Might have a little something to do. I, by the way, have both of my books here as well. I don't have the nuance. It's not out yet, but we'll talk about that. Cindy, how are you?

Dr. Cindy 2:41

Oh, I am so good. Good to see you. Joel, thank you so much for having me.

Joel Goldberg 2:45

It's great to have you. And you know, you and I have talked offline some beforehand, and I really, like you said in the intro, the energy is off the charts. I'm guessing that's who you have have always been, but how you got here is certainly quite the story. And I think that the thing that I like about this book is that it is, or books...tt's not a how to sell, as much as, I think, a reminder that we're all sales people, no matter what we do. And that doesn't have to be going knocking door to door, making cold calls. We're all selling something or something, someone, whatever it might be, every single day. Every Job is a Sales Job. And Sell Yourself: How to Create, Live and Sell a Powerful Personal Brand. Or the first one, the other one is, Every Job is a Sales Job: How to Use the Art of Selling to Win at Work. These are life books. I think, as much as anything. Am I right on that?

Dr. Cindy 3:39

That's the goal, and that's literally how I wrote them. Because they're the books I wish somebody had given me when I was probably like 17 or 18. So I wanted to help people to realize that sales is truly a life skill, not just a business skill. And if I had learned that lesson much earlier in life, it would have probably not only changed my career trajectory, but would have changed, really, everything.

Joel Goldberg 4:03

Yeah, but the beauty of it is that it did change it, it, maybe it changed it a little bit later. But now it's given you this, you know, this incredible purpose too. I think that there are some people that were, I don't know, quote, unquote, born to sell, whether you know, whatever they're selling, right? But I think also sometimes we think of sales, and I hope no one will take offense to this, because if you're really good at it, you won't. You're different. But I think some people, times, people think of selling as the the used car salesman. And by the way, there's some really good used car salesmen out there that you don't look at them as being sales, because you end up saying, Oh, I really like this person. And it doesn't feel like sales. They are selling to you. By the way, they're much better at it. I think that there's something deeper there, right? The relationship part of things, which so maybe we all have it in us, but we don't know what it is. What's the misconception about sales?

Dr. Cindy 4:59

Yeah. Yeah. So I think the misconception is that it's icky, right? We all think that it's that used car salesperson approach, but that's what I thought it was, too. I thought it was so I have an avatar in my head of it, and I call him Tommy Two Thumbs, and he's the, you know, hey, what's it going to take to, you know, get you in this car. And that's what we all think. We all have this lowest common denominator that we go to when somebody says the word sales. And I've even had sales people come to me and say, Oh, well, Dr. Cindy, I'm not a salesperson. And it's like, okay, it literally says that on your business card that you're a salesperson. But we think, Oh, but I'm not a sales person. So we have to remove the stigma everybody thinks there's a there's this ick factor associated with sales. I want to change that. I want to remove the ickiness that is with that. And by the time I'm done, we need a new word for it. I don't know, but I think that's the problem. Is people think that sales has to be this icky, pushy, cheesy, manipulative, that's not it at all. And to your point, Joel, when that really good salesperson is selling to us and we don't even know it, they're actually helping us, and that's what real sales is. True sales is understanding what somebody needs and delivering on that. That's what real sales is. And when I realized that, I was like, oh, wait a second, I am a salesperson. I've been doing this my whole life, I just didn't know that. So that's what we've got to get the word out.

Joel Goldberg 6:31

Yeah, I mean, I look, I've got a lot to learn with this, because at least, you know, if I'm being transparent here in my TV world, I've been selling every day, and I know how to do that. I don't have to make the transaction. It's all personality based and trust based. But when I get to my speaking business and everything there, it's, it's trying to learn how to take the skills that have worked in television and use them the same way. And the temptation is, here's what I've got for you, here's what I've got for you. Do you want to hire me? Do you want to hire me? And it's like, okay, when I'm when I go to the ballpark every single day, I'm really selling trust, and a belief that with the athletes, yes, you could trust me to handle your story, to give me some information, to tell it in the right way, and hopefully the fans are then trusting me to be able to be that person. And that's just all personality driven. And so to me, I wish that I had understood that when I was younger. Like you, came to this epiphany as well, that, wait a minute, sales is so much more than the transaction. The transaction, if I'm putting it correctly, and you push back, or, you know, go wherever you want with this, the transaction is the result of the sale. It is not the actual sale. Is that right?

Dr. Cindy 7:41

It is but, but to kind of tear apart that piece that you just said you're selling yourself at the ballpark, so you're still selling something. It's not just the personality. You're selling your personal brand that you've created. You have crafted this personal brand, and you nailed it. You said you're selling trust, and no sale is going to happen without trust. So if you really break it down to a sales process, you have a plan. When you're going to the ballpark, you are going up to that that player, and you are recognizing that your goal is to make sure they trust you to be able to tell that story. You're looking for the right opportunity to approach them and make sure that this is a good time, that they're going to understand this. So then you establish that trust. You listen to what their goals are. You find an opportunity to connect with them. You ask the right questions that are going to highlight them, right? You ask for their permission to make sure that you can say, Hey, can I use this? Can I tell this story? Can I do this? And then you follow up with them and say, Hey, this story went great, or this worked out. So you're actually following a sales process. You're literally following five steps that I talk about. You just don't think about that, right? So you are literally selling it's just you're selling your brand. It's the same product. It's just slightly different.

Joel Goldberg 9:01

Yeah, and I would add to this as well that a lot of selling, and I'm speaking just from a reporting baseball standpoint here now, and this could be a little harder to do when you're not face to face. A lot of selling to me is reading the room. A lot of my selling is when not to. Meaning, I can see right now that this person is distracted, is busy. How badly do I need this transaction right now? Can it wait till another time? Because if I mean, look, how many times do we get the phone call? Well, now we get them all day long with just spam, and there's never a good time for that. How often do we get the the LinkedIn message that is clearly automated, that keeps on populating every single day or repeating. And I'm like, no. Like, leave me alone. Now's not the right time, or now is never the right time. How many people, especially with automation now too, miss the signals? I mean to me, so much of sales, Cindy, if we're talking about this as relationship, is reading the relationship. Is reading

Dr. Cindy 10:02

Totally.

Joel Goldberg 10:02

The timing. And I think, to me, that we live in a time right now with AI, with automation, or with the speed of everything, that everybody wants something right now and they forget all the basics.

Dr. Cindy 10:18

I think that's very true, and that actually builds distrust. When you're not reading the room, it actually breeds distrust. So it's funny. So if you look at my five steps that I teach of the sales process, it's create a plan, look for the right opportunity, listen to build trust, ask and then follow up. So that opportunity part, you just said it. If it's not the right moment, walk away. And with the automation of using AI or using bots or whatever, people are actually missing their moment because they're badgering, or they're coming across desperate. And we can, I mean, you can smell desperation a mile away, and so it's like, go away. Stop. Or they get from me, unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe, like that's the first thing I do in the morning. Swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, unsubscribe, stop. Unsubscribe. So they've, they've blown their shot before they've even gotten out of the gate, because it's so incredibly generic, and that's because they're missing the fact that their sales 101, they're not reading the room.

Joel Goldberg 11:24

Yeah, that's a good, by the way, addition to the morning routine for me. After I do my morning meditation is maybe just doing like, a minute of unsubscribes, because it's like spring cleaning, right? It's like lifting a weight. Oh, there's one left in my inbox, although it never stops, right?

Dr. Cindy 11:43

Yeah. Oh, that's the first thing I do.

Joel Goldberg 11:45

You're the you're the expert at this. You also are an international speaker, two time author, third book coming. Got that PhD next to your name in front of your name. So there's a lot of work that has gone into this. I love the career paths of my guests, because they're never a straight line. It never is for for anyone. It's never what anyone expected. Very, very rarely. Have I ever had anyone? Have I had anyone on this podcast that said this is exactly where I want to be? It's one of my opening lines when I speak to an audience, and I'll say and fill in the blank. How many of you knew when you were young that you would be working for a fill in the blank company doing this, and nobody raises their hand and I'll say, Well, I actually dreamed of being on TV, but I could not have known that it would be hosting pre and post game shows, because they didn't exist. I could not have known it would involve a podcast that didn't exist on and on, right? I mean, the world changes. And so even if we're in the profession, what about for you? I'm guessing you always had the big, gregarious personality. I'm guessing you were comfortable in front of people. Maybe not by the way, maybe you came to this later in life, but certainly academia and a lot of steps along the way to now having your consultancy. How did you get here?

Dr. Cindy 12:55

Well, first of all, I was never going to be in sales. I'll tell you that right now. If you had told a even, you know, 22 year old Cindy, that she was going to be in sales, I would have told you, you were nuts. So I was in college and grad school, and I thought I was going to be a college professor, truthfully, and that was what I was studying. And I was a college professor for a number of years. Was consulting in the summers and went into consulting full time, and was in that role for about six months, and got put into a sales role. And truth is, I thought I was going to get fired, because when I got put in sales, I'm thinking, I can't do this, and nor do I want to. Because, again, I thought, Tommy Two Thumbs. I'm thinking, oh my God, I can't do that, and I don't want to be that. I do not want to be sales. I'm not salesy. I'm nice. I'm from the south. Like, I can't. No. And my boss literally said this to me, Joel, he said, If you can learn to sell, it will change your life. And I rolled my eyes, you know, my 20-something year old self, I'm like, Oh God, seriously? Like, you're such a sales guy. And he was 100% right. And about six months into that, I...it was a light bulb. And I went, Oh my gosh, why didn't anybody tell me this? I have three higher education degrees in communication, and I never learned what was in these books. And I went to really good schools, but we don't teach sales.

Joel Goldberg 14:19

Yep.

Dr. Cindy 14:20

We, and sales as a path in college is still fairly new, so it's funny to me that we don't really teach this yet. What is the first thing you do when you get out of college? You go interview for a job that is a sales conversation. It's like, how do we not require, we require a course in public speaking to graduate college, but we do not require a course in sales. Kind of interseting.

Joel Goldberg 14:47

Yeah, you know, I've thought about this just from my world in television. It'll make sense to everyone though that I got a great education at the University of Wisconsin. I graduated with a journalism degree. And they taught me how to be a journalist and how to ask questions, and in the early part of my career, how to run a camera and set up the lighting and the audio and all the things that they don't let me touch anymore, thankfully. But I learned how to do all that, and I learned how to get sources, and I learned how to write all the things that you needed to do. And I don't remember anyone ever telling me how to build trust and connect with people. And it took me a lot of years, from a television standpoint, to understand kind of like what I said before, that the transaction is the result of the sale. The interview was the result of the sale, not the interview comes first. And, and once I learned that. And by the way, not all situations are created equal. Sometimes you have to do it in two seconds, and you have no connection, and you got to find something. There's all kinds of how to sell quick, how to sell long term, but, but really, to me, what I didn't understand. And now I tell people that want to to do what I do. And I've been lucky enough to be in television for 30 years. I've been lucky enough now to take the lessons learned in TV and baseball and share them with audiences around the country. But no one ever spelled like there should have been a class. There should have been a class on how to sell or how to build relationships and oh, by the way, in this day and age that we're living in right now, it is more important than ever, because we have all started to hide behind our phones, behind our screens. We could thank the pandemic. We could thank technology. We could thank and and by the way, it's not going back. So how do we fight that? Because I think Cindy that it's a competitive advantage now to know how to do that. And less people know how to do it than ever. That's my take. You might have the numbers on it. I tell young people or older, by the way, but, but certainly young people coming out of college that if you can just be a little uncomfortable, if that's if that's not something you love to do, and just go meet with someone face to face. Just go show yourself face to face. You're already ahead of the competition. It's going that way, isn't it?

Dr. Cindy 17:02

Yeah. So it's so funny you say this, and this is 100% true, in my opinion. And there is data to show this to my research nerdness, like has has done, but with AI, yeah. So, so I was literally talking to a researcher about this yesterday, because we're kind of joining forces and talking about webinars and things, but we were talking about AI because everybody's asking us this, like, oh, is, are the robots taking over? The robots are not taking over. Yes, they are here to stay, but it's kind of like, you know, I can't tell you anybody's phone number anymore, because they're all stored in my phone, right? So AI is here to stay, but it's going to be a resource, same way your smartphone is. But what this does tell you is it will change the way you utilize the rest of your skill set. So I agree with you that interpersonal skill set is no longer a required skill. It is now going to be an elevated skill. And I don't think the soft skills are really soft skills anymore. I think they're power skills, and I think that's going to be a value add. And so if you can really understand interpersonal communication, if you can understand conflict resolution, if you can go and truly be able to sell yourself in a conversation, if you can be able to go and have that face to face, even just being able to articulate, everybody knows when an email has been written by by AI. I can spot it a mile away, and so can you, we all get them. When you can truly connect with another human, and you can make that come through, think about how that makes you feel. Because that's the difference. That is the human connection, and that is going to be your advantage, whether you're applying for a job. Building Trust is really what it's about. I literally gave a webinar on that this morning where it was about building trust and building partnerships. And that's where it where it is. So I think that's going to be a huge advantage from now till forever, unless we are bots selling to bots.

Joel Goldberg 18:57

And I, by the way, and anyone that knows me personally will attest to this, that I am, I am not an anti-AI and technology guy. I love it all. I absolutely love it, but it is a, it is an and not an, or it has to be and so, yeah, previous guest of mine, who I do a lot of work with, Brian Bogert, talks often about using AI to compress time. I so often say, what? How do we get more than 24 hours in a day? For all of us that are doing too many things, and a lot of you can relate, that's how you do it. But for me, if I'm going to use ChatGPT or AI to say, help me write a blog or newsletter, the start comes from me and the end comes from me.

Dr. Cindy 19:44

Yeah.

Joel Goldberg 19:45

Do the work in the middle, but it's got to come from a critical eye, not just my voice that yes, ChatGPT has learned. Here's what I'm looking to do, here's the experience of the story that I have now I've got to go back and be the editor. I've gotta go back and be critical with it. And, oh, by the way, just a quick little hack, take out the dashes, or whatever those things are called.

Dr. Cindy 20:07

And dash, yes. That's another telltale sign, the M dash, yeah.

Joel Goldberg 20:13

Has anybody ever used that before?

Dr. Cindy 20:17

I actually do use those because there are a journalistic tool, as you know, but it's, it's, but they are used to for emphasis. Not in every single paragraph, which is what AI does.

Joel Goldberg 20:29

I do not have a doctor in front of my name or masters at the end of my name, so I'm not allowed to use those. And by the way, every time I tell ChatGPT to remove them, it still goes back to them.

Dr. Cindy 20:41

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Goldberg 20:43

Anyway, whatever. That's just my own little little gripe with this. Yeah, glitches. Okay, so I want to talk about each of the books and then your new book before we we move on. The first one is, I think I have the right order here. Every Job Is A Sales Job: How to Use the Art of Selling to Win at Work. Right? That's the that. That's the great starting point. Then the, maybe the master's degree or the PhD of this is Sell Yourself: How to Create, Live and Sell a Powerful Personal Brand. And we all have them. It might matter some to more than others, but I remember you telling me when you you so graciously sent me the books, and I dove right in. And by the way, these books read like you sound. They are, they're they're fun, entertaining. It's not a yes, it is a how to but you get the point. We've got a lot of those out there. There's a lot of personality in the book. But you really said that, if you're going to start somewhere, start with Every Job Is A Sales Job. Because it's relatable to all of us. What's, what's the overall, what's the overall message? There's so much, so much interesting. I mean, like throughout the whole thing, I was, I was gripped right away from the start, because it's, it's practical. It's not, there's some eye opening moments in here was, wait a minute, why was I making this so difficult?

Dr. Cindy 22:06

So that was what I wanted. And thank you for saying that, and thank you also for reading. That was what I wanted out of that book. Is I wanted it to be super easy, and I wanted to demystify sales. Because if I had never gotten put into sales, even at my age now, and even, you know, running companies and doing what I do now, I don't know that I would have ever picked up a sales book, because I would have thought, I don't do sales. So I wanted to demystify it, and I wanted to de ick it, because that was the problem is, everybody thinks it's icky, it's yucky, it's this, and it's like, no, you're selling every day. You just don't call it that. Here's five easy steps to follow, which, by the way, you already do, and here's how you do them in your regular life. Now, here's how you can bring them to your business and your life on purpose. And that was really what I wanted people to get out of the book. If you have ever convinced your kid to eat anything green, you're like the best salesperson on the planet, right? So, like you are already selling, kind of like I had said for you at the ballpark, you're already selling. And so it's just recognizing what you do to sell successfully, deconstruct it and then apply it to things you want for yourself in work or in life, and then do that more purposefully, and everybody can do this. And I know there's people who are listening, who are watching, who are saying, There's no way I can do that. I couldn't do that. There's no way y'all. Listen to me. If I can do it, I promise y'all can do it. Because I was that person. I was the person saying, There's no way I can do this. And that's why I had to write this book. Because when I realized that, I was like, Oh my gosh, why didn't anybody tell me this? And so I literally was like, I have to tell the world.

Joel Goldberg 23:53

I love the the southern with the y'all coming out there, even though you are now, I think a long time San Franciscan or, right? I'm not sure how long?

Dr. Cindy 24:02

You can take the girl out of the panhandle, but, you know.

Joel Goldberg 24:06

There it is. Hey. I mean, this is, you know, the PhD from Florida State, so that's right. Oh yeah, there's a, there's a Hey Y'all mug over, over Cindy's right shoulder as well. But this really, I mean, it does. This does not have to be a work thing, too. I mean, I, I think you could come up with any situation that it would help someone for. Let's say that you are, I don't know someone of a certain age that you're needing to convince elderly parents that it's time to do you know this, or a family you know, whatever it is, right? I'm trying to suddenly realize that if my parents, well, yeah, yeah. I was thinking, if my parents are listening, they might think that I'm trying to convince them to get out of the house. Well, thats a discussion for a different day, but it's all a sale. It's all a sale based on relationships. So this applies to everyone. Now, when it comes to brand that's a little bit different. Sell Yourself: How to Create, Live and Sell a Powerful Personal Brand. But again, I think the word that you have there in the title, and I have not made it to the second book yet, but we all have a brand, no matter what we do in any profession, too. So why does why does it matter to sell yourself, which I think is one of the hardest things to do.

Dr. Cindy 25:28

So what's interesting about this is people don't realize they have a brand, whether they realize it or not. So what ends up happening is you've got a brand, and you're selling it already, so you might as well do it on purpose, because people have this impression of you anyways. And so whatever you're putting out there, people have made a judgment about you. And so if you're not purposefully crafting what you want people to think about you, if you're not proactively selling the image you want them to have, they're making their own conclusion. And this was a lesson that I learned in grad school, and a college professor of mine pulled me aside, and I tell this in the book, and it's not ruining anything, but this was a amazing piece of advice that I got right before I was about to defend my dissertation. One of my professors pulled me aside, and he said, Girls who look like you are not supposed to be smart. So when you go in that room, remember that. And I didn't know what to do with that. And what he was saying, it was not a, it was not a slight. It was not anything. He was saying. They have all created an opinion of who I was, and I needed to remember that walking in that room, I had to sell that as well as my research. And every, all six of those people sitting at that table had created their own construct of who Cindy McGovern was, and he was absolutely right. And once I, once I thought about that, I went, Oh my gosh, he is right. So it didn't matter that I had gotten great grades through grad school. It didn't matter that I did all of my research. It didn't matter that I had done all the work, I had checked all the boxes. What mattered is that I sold it to them, because that was the last chance those six people had to tell me whether I earned it or not. And that's was really good advice.

Joel Goldberg 27:27

Because we can't control what's in other people's brains, at least at the at the beginning, right? I mean, I I always, I'm not amazed anymore, but people will meet me, you know, out on the street, around the stadium, whatever, and say, hey, well, you're actually the same guy that you are on TV, or, Oh, you're nicer than we thought you would be. Because there's maybe a perception that, because you're on TV, you must be fill in the blank, you know, big ego, whatever it is, right? It's I, I've almost come to think like that's that can be a competitive advantage if you have that knowledge or that understanding that that might be the case. Because sure, you want to lower the bar, you make it that much easier for me to jump over it and and you know ways to pass expectations that you should have had higher expectations to begin with. But I guess the question there is, how do you figure out what people are thinking? We live in a world, understandably so, where we're told, don't worry about what other people think of you. And I agree with that, but it also might help to know what they think of you, doesn't it?

Dr. Cindy 28:33

It does, and I think you can figure that out with not a whole lot of research, but but the key is, what do you want? Them thinking about you? What do you actually want? Because this may be preventing you from getting where you want to go. So one of the things that we can think about is, let's say that you're at work and you're not getting the promotion that you want. You're just not moving forward. Why? You're doing all the right things, you're checking all the boxes. What's the issue? Are you putting out a vibe that is negative? Do you have you know, the the witch face? Are you not being seen as a team player, even though you're checking all of the boxes? Are you not socially joining the group? And is that being perceived as you not being a team player, even though you do all the great work. But are you not socializing? That may be the thing that's holding you back, and it's part of your personal brand. So you've got to recognize all of those pieces. And if we're not recognizing that, that is holding you back. The other thing is, is it propelling you? It's sort of like these, these pieces that we we see in celebrities, in the in the news, right? Kind of like you said, people meet you, they're like, Oh, you're the same guy and, and it's kind of shocking. It's like, of course. Well, do you think I'm somebody different? But, but that is the low bar piece. But we have to remember, they have created their own conclusions about us the second you walk into the room. This happens whether you're a celebrity, whether you're a known figure or not. And so we have to remember people are making snap judgments, and it's worse now with social media and everything else. 24/7, your LinkedIn profile is selling for you, whether or not you're thinking about it, by the way, every impression you have made. Every person you come in contact with is now a walk in commercial for you. What are they thinking? What is the impression you left on them? I know someone who is leaving a job. This person is retiring, and they have truly checked out very much. Checked out not, you know, to their staff members, not really, not really engaged, and to the point where it's a detriment to the rest of the staff. That's going to be their legacy in retirement, not all the good work that they did, and they're not recognizing that is becoming their brand. But they're checked out because they're retiring. And so it's like you have to recognize what you're putting out, and they're selling the wrong thing. So these are really important lessons for us all to recognize in in our branding, and you have the narrative to control. It's absolutely up to you because you're the one selling it. So don't leave the narrative up to the rest of the world to decide.

Joel Goldberg 31:26

Love that and so much wisdom in it as well. I mean, we leave an impression everywhere we go, whether that be a digital impression, a personal impression, and you do it over and over and over again, and it builds something good. But maybe fair or not fair, you do something bad once, it takes a lot of work to to dig out. Doesn't mean we have to be perfect, but I just always say that you can, you can spend years building trust or reputation, and you can throw it away in a moment. So it takes effort to build it every single day, but you can throw it away in one day. I'll get to the other book in my final questions. But let's get to my baseball themed questions right now. And what is in your career path here, the winding path that has taken you to your purpose of teaching people these important skills, speaking on them, writing about it, your consultancy. What's the biggest home run you've hit?

Dr. Cindy 32:23

Yeah, the biggest home run was truly recognizing that I had a skill that would help other people, and it was something that they already had. It's to truly just awaken that in other people. And it was that moment where I recognized, oh, wait a second, I can do this, and I can help other people do this. Oh my gosh. It was really just developing that moment of like, I know what to do, and I love helping people. And so it was, it was truly a light bulb moment for me, Joel, that I got so excited, and it changed literally, my entire career trajectory. That was, that was the moment.

Joel Goldberg 33:02

That "aha" moment that changed everything. And you never know what those aha moments are going to be, but when they happen, you know, it maybe not right in the moment, sometimes in the moment, certainly after and it is, it's it's life changing. It's something that that I hope everyone experiences and everybody does, by the way, it might not be job related. It might be whatever that epiphany is. It's something that really, really can change your life. How about a swing and a miss? And if you're paying attention to swings and misses, they can change your life, too. For the positive, if you're learning from them, you're a lifelong educator, and you understand that. But what's a swing and a miss? And what did you learn from it?

Dr. Cindy 33:36

There are so many of those. And I actually was thinking about this before we did our podcast, because I was obviously listening to past episodes. There are so many swings and misses, but I think the biggest swing and a miss that I had was when I thought that I had to sell like everybody else. And it was when I was learning to sell, and I started watching how other people sold, and I felt like I had to fit a mold, and when I realized I didn't have to do it that way, that I could be, that I could be me, and that's when it really started to take off for me, where I was, like, wait a second, I don't have to do it that way. I don't have to. I don't have to. I like, I don't I'm not funny. I don't have to, like, do, do this, like, dance thing. I can do it my way, like, I can sit down, I can chit chat with people, like, I got this. And when I realized that that was the the key and the swing and the Miss was when I was just trying to follow other patterns, which is what drove me to write my own book, write my own sales process, I was like, Wait a second, none of these fit. So the swing and the Miss was trying to follow somebody else's paths. None of them fit.

Joel Goldberg 34:39

Yeah. And the liberating part was following your own path and and understanding the power in that one, okay, final baseball theme question, small ball. I think so much of what is in these books is small ball, because small ball, to me, is it's small, it's little. We don't talk about it. You're talking about it that that is what you're making your living, happy. Because this is important. You said before that that the soft skills aren't so soft. And I think small ball oftentimes, in the real world is the soft skills. They're not celebrated. They should be celebrated. What is small ball to you?

Dr. Cindy 35:12

So, funny enough. It kind of goes back to what you said in the beginning. Is it seeing those opportunities for sales, because it literally is all around you. And I think that's the thing, is being consistent about being proactive for those moments that are presented to us. Because we do have the opportunity to sell ourselves every day. You have the opportunity to get closer to your own goals, personally, professionally. But we don't take it because we don't see those moments as true opportunities. And once you understand that those are sales opportunities and sales moments, you will be more consistent. And to me, that small ball that's just taking it when it comes to you and I, I think that that's really the moment, and it's just that consistency around it.

Joel Goldberg 36:02

Love that. Love every bit of it. Okay, four final questions as we round the bases. The first one, let's, let's go back to a little bit of what you said about that Professor. Because that certainly could have been a home run type of moment for you as well. And it could have been a very insulting one, and you turned it into a positive. But I just want you to share this, because I think that we all whether it be based on what we do, how we look, what we sound like, whatever it might be those preconceived notions. And so you alluded to this a little bit, but you talked about the personal brand, and here you are, a few weeks before you're set to defend your PhD dissertation, and a professor shares with you that your peers saw you as a quote, unquote dumb blonde, which sounds extremely insulting, and I'm going to guess that unless you were suddenly blonde that day. That was not the first time you had heard that, as if, somehow, if you're a blonde, you must be the quote, unquote dumb. But how come nobody ever, nobody ever says a dumb brunette? By the way, I don't know that anybody should be calling anybody dumb, right? And we live in this world where everybody calls everybody everything now, and it's much worse than that. But how did you deal with that? What did that do for you? Because, like I said, it couldn't have been the first time you were aware of it, but it might have been the most significant time anybody called you on on something that was so preposterous.

Dr. Cindy 37:35

So to give a little context of the time, this was the height of the dumb blonde joke era as well. So this was literally like, this was when they were going around, like, this was we were the targets of the dumb blonde jokes. This was, I had heard them all, but it were, it really was that stereotype, and I am certainly not the first blonde woman to get a PhD. So, but it was really interesting, and I did not find it as an insult. I actually found it as coaching. That's what he meant it as. And yes, I could have taken it as a different context, but he meant it as coaching, and he meant it as pay attention to this room. He meant it as an opportunity to think about how I approached my dissertation defense and how I prepared for it, and for me, it was a pivotal moment, and it really wasn't. It really was an aha moment for me, and to the point now that 26 years later, I'm still thinking about it. And I, for one, recognize that I, I knew I had a brand. Like, I knew that. I, you know, I was teaching aerobics, and I was, you know, doing all these different things. But I I didn't think that that was a detriment to me getting a PhD. I had never considered that those could be drawbacks. I thought those things meant that I was multifaceted. I never considered that those could be seen as deficits to my intellect, until it was pointed out and I recognized, then, wait a second, this could be seen as something, as detracting me from research, detracting me from the focus of studies, even though I had done really well. So to go back to sort of your question is I needed to take that moment to be very serious about what I wanted my brand to be when I walked in that room, what I wanted them to walk out with thinking about me, and what I wanted to sell them on about me. So even my word choice, Joel, I was careful about, even the examples I shared in answering their questions, I was careful about. So it changed truly, everything that I did in that room for my dissertation defense and the hours that I was in there. Or just based on his one piece of advice.

Joel Goldberg 40:02

Again, life changing. And I think that whether you are a male a female, whether you're blonde or brunette or gray, white hair, like me, whatever it is, and for whatever reason, people are going to have their preconceived notions. And I guess it's up to you to show them who you are. And we talked about that a little bit before, but I think that's a profound lesson learned and learned at a very critical time, obviously, in in your life, by the way, and I haven't mentioned this yet, and I'll make sure it's in the show notes, but to learn more about Cindy, and you could certainly follow her on all the the social media spots, First Lady of Sales. If you search for that, you'll find her, but the website is Dr cindy.com Dr, Cindy. Dr, C i n d y.com. Sign up for a newsletter, and then when you wake up in the morning, don't unsubscribe. You could do that for the other ones, not for Cindy, right? I'm trying to help. I've subscribed as well. I did that while we were while we were on, because I had not been yet. But okay, let's get to the the second question, now that I have that housekeeping out of the way, and the second question I wanted to ask you about is the new book. When I say new, it's not here yet, but people listen to this podcast later, or they can, you know, put a reminder in there for themselves. Or if you're signing up for Cindy's stuff, you'll get those reminder as well. New Book and a different one, little bit of a different context here. I don't know if it's going to be in orange cover or not, but this one really geared towards women coming out in March. Tell me about it.

Dr. Cindy 41:39

So this book is about the internal sales conversation we have with ourselves, and it's about giving ourselves permission to go after what we want and to be our authentic selves. And what we do is we sort of have these internal sales conversations. We talk ourselves into things, we talk ourselves out of things. And the analogy that I use is we have these backup singers in our heads, and we have to get them kind of singing in harmony so that we can listen to our our own voice. And so that is the story of of giving ourselves permission and trusting our own voice. And I'm really excited about it. It, it's very research based, but un nerdy, and it will be out in March of 2026. Week of March. First week of March.

Joel Goldberg 42:25

And while it is geared towards women, I still think it's going to be a book for everyone, because you know what, we all have those voices in our head, whether we call it imposter syndrome or that's part of it. Who doesn't have those voices in their head? Right?

Dr. Cindy 42:41

Absolutely. And especially if you are working with women, you have daughters, your wife, sisters, any anything like that. It's definitely geared for women, but it is if you are struggling with any of those voices that kind of creep up and say things in your ear. It's for you.

Joel Goldberg 43:00

Our third question, I have to go here. I should have had a clip ready, but it's in a past episode. You are now going to be the second guest in recent months that had some version of the same celebrity, Dream person to meet, or in your case, Dream breakfast or lunch. The first was Michael Mackey, who was on my show recently. He's a writer, a blogger, a media personality, a travel host, who basically said that he will die and go to heaven if he gets a chance to meet the person that you want. Maybe we could schedule a lunch or breakfast with you and him and this famous, maybe the most famous blonde of all time, are certainly up there with the Marilyn Monroes of the world. Who is that one person that you would love to have breakfast or lunch with?

Dr. Cindy 43:51

I mean, hey, I'll go with Marilyn Monroe too. You know, that would be fascinating. I this is so hard because I have like 10 people that I would love to have lunch with, but I would love to sit down with Dolly Parton. Yeah.

Joel Goldberg 44:08

Who wouldn't, though?

Dr. Cindy 44:09

Right?

Joel Goldberg 44:11

Who has ever said a bad word about Dolly Parton?

Dr. Cindy 44:14

Right? I would love to sit with Dolly and just hang with her for an afternoon. I just think she'd be amazing. And I talk about her in my books.

Joel Goldberg 44:23

I think every person that comes on the show should have that answer, and then we could, like, have a big group. I don't know that. I don't think Dolly is ever gonna listen to this. But you never know. You never know. But I just Yeah, but you know, like, I just, I don't know. I just love people that bring joy and goodness and find positive in everything. And she's off the charts in terms of that. You don't even have to like her music. I do. But whatever your you know, whatever your your favorite music is, or all the movies and all everything that she was in, she's just great. So I thought I was reading. I was reading that from our survey. I'm like, You are the second one in recent weeks to say the dream. And I don't ask every person that question, but I thought that was fun. Okay, we're going to wrap it up with this by walk off question, which really ties everything together with the books. Every Job Is A Sales Job: How To Use the Art of Selling to Win at Work and Sell Yourself: How to Create, Live and Sell a Powerful Personal Brand by Dr. Cindy McGovern. Wall Street Journal Bestselling Author. Your personal motto: If you don't ask, you don't get. Talk a little bit more about that for our walk off question here, because I think it is so obvious and oftentimes so overlooked.

Dr. Cindy 45:44

So even sales people overlook this one, right? There's this idea that, Oh, they know why I'm there, but if we don't ask for it, we're not going to get it. Whether you're asking for French fries versus a baked potato, or any of those things. And we live in a question and answer society. We were talking about people who are married, somebody asked somebody, asked somebody a question at some point. Y'all just didn't show up at the courthouse or the church and be like, today's a good day. So so we have to remember, we need to throw that question out there. So if you don't ask, you are not going to get. And think about when you were a kid and you wanted a raise in your allowance, or you wanted to go outside and play, you asked, why did we stop asking? Why did we all of a sudden assume the rest of the world were mind readers? We're not. And now, more than ever, we live in a distracted world. So we are not just competing for people's blessing or permission or advocacy, we're competing for their attention. So now, more than ever, you got to ask for what you want. Don't just assume the rest of the world is going to deliver whatever it is that you're looking for.

Joel Goldberg 46:51

It's great advice, and as Cindy said, it could be anything from work to the fries versus the baked potato, whatever it is. Or you're going to get what you get or not get it. And so that's a lot of what you will learn from Cindy. The new book coming out in March, talked about the current books, or the two books that she has written, and the website as well. Dr cindy.com, Dr Cindy, Dr C I N D Y.com there's a ton of stuff on there from the books, great blogs, by the way, a lot of really good information, the newsletter, the speaking, on and on. So Cindy, it's such a pleasure to be able to get to know you. I am looking forward to the next time I'm in the Bay Area and see if we can connect that way. But in the meantime, good luck with the final push for this new book. I know that's a lot of work. Congratulations, in advance, and thanks so much for spending time on Rounding the Bases.

Dr. Cindy 47:55

Thank you so much for having me, Joel. This was great fun. I appreciate you. Bye.