Chris Gargano: Mastering the Narrative
Business and baseball are all about metrics. From batting averages and ERAs to profit margins and ROIs, we live in a world where numbers rule. But here’s a thought. What if the most important number you’re not measuring is your return on relationships?
While numbers may drive decisions, the strength of our human connections are what really move the needle. Return on relationships isn’t just a feel-good buzzword. It’s an asset that compounds over time, often yielding dividends that no spreadsheet can fully capture.
Over the course of my 30 year career in sports broadcasting, I’ve seen it firsthand more times than I can count. The most successful teams aren’t the ones with the best players. They’re the ones with the best connections between those players. The way they communicate, trust each other and have each other’s backs is their real source of power.
In business, the value from investing in relationships can be game-changing. But how do you track it? And more importantly, how do you make sure you’re not missing out?
As a keynote speaker, taking time to meet with audiences and decision makers has made all the difference. Just one impactful connection can open the door to countess opportunities. But where I have truly felt the return on relationships is from my weekly podcast, Rounding the Bases.
What began as content creation vehicle laid the framework for a priceless network of new connections. Nurturing those relationships - with a text, a cup of coffee or even an in-person hello while on the road - has led to something valuable beyond measure.
One recent interview reminded me of this, as I traced the origin of our relationship several months - and prior podcast guests - back. My guest was Chris Gargano, an award-winning pro sports content veteran who spent more than 20 years investing in relationships with fans from coast-to-coast.
Now, he’s a podcast host and founder of the Gargano Leadership Group, where teams and business influencers alike learn to navigate the complexities of taking action…securing advantages - and returns - that are bigger than themselves.
SINGLE: Curiosity is key
I’ve always believed that curiosity is one of the most underrated tools when it comes to investing in real relationships. It’s not just about asking questions, but about truly wanting to understand what makes someone tick.
The same is true for Chris Gargano, and is something he credits the success of his sports media career, and now in leadership consulting, to.
“I want to know what it was like in the huddle. I want to know the relationship between the quarterback and the quarterback coach,” he enthused. “What were the conversations in the meeting room? That interests me.”
Our shared background in pro sports is, I believe, one of the reasons Chris and I clicked the way we did. In all of our years around athletes, what has stuck isn’t just the stats. It’s understanding how they approach what they do.
“Wins and losses? That’s cool,” said Chris, “But I love the process and how people think and how they interact with one another.”
That curiosity mindset applies the same off the field, too. When you take the time to ask and really listen, you begin to understand people on a deeper level. It’s what keeps us going, and is where the real return on relationships comes from.
Curiosity isn’t just a trait. It’s a strategy that pays off in ways numbers never will.
DOUBLE: Consistency Matters
If there’s one thing I’ve learned in all my years around ball clubs, it’s that consistency builds trust. Every relationship, whether with a player or a colleague, is shaped by what people come to expect from you.
“Consistency does not mean being the same all the time,” Chris clarified, “Just not variations of a different person.”
At the heart of it, consistency is one of those quiet forces that pays off over time. And when you think about the relationships that yield the biggest returns, they’re usually the ones with people who bring the same energy, intention and enthusiasm every day, especially when times are tough.
“That all comes into consistency,” he said. “Not being disingenuous.”
That transparency builds more than just a moment. It builds equity in the relationship.
TRIPLE: vulnerability creates connection
When it comes to investing in relationships, vulnerability is one of the most powerful tools we have.
Admittedly, it can be tough to let down your guard in front of a crowd. But there’s also something deeply humanizing about sharing your own setbacks that creates an almost immediate connection with audiences.
“There’s a modesty to that,” Chris remarked, adding, “Vulnerability and that sharing helps people see themselves in you and what you have overcome.”
Now, I get it. Many of us, myself included, were raised to not make it about ourselves. But vulnerability isn’t about shifting the spotlight onto yourself. It’s about showing others they’re not alone. And I’ve found that being real, even when it’s uncomfortable, pays the greatest dividends.
Because at the end of the day, people don’t connect to perfection. They connect to truth.
HOME RUN: practice makes perfect
When it comes to investing in real, lasting relationships, there are no shortcuts. They take work, just like anything meaningful in life.
The same way baseball players take batting practice, the more you do something, the more skilled you become…especially for younger generations who struggle with in-person connections.
“It’s reps of an uncomfortable conversation,” adjunct professor Gargano shared. “But the more you do it, the more you’re giving joy to somebody, or you’re having an interaction you remember.”
No matter how much potential a student, or anyone else has, returns on relationships have little to do with talent. It’s about choice, and making an intentional decision to develop your connection muscle.
Sure, social media and DMs have their place, but there’s nothing quite like face-to-face connection. It takes courage to say hello, and that courage grows with practice.
The good news is, the world is full of opportunities to try. And the more you invest in those small, daily moments of connection, the greater the returns will be…in ways you never could’ve predicted.
Listen to the full interview here or tune in to Rounding the Bases every Tuesday, available wherever you get your podcasts.
LEARN MORE ABOUT returns on relationships FROM JOEL
Book Joel Goldberg for your next corporate event. He draws on over 30 years of experience as a sports broadcaster. In addition, he brings unique perspectives and lessons learned from some of the world’s most successful organizations. Whatever your profession, Joel is the keynote speaker who can help your team achieve a championship state of mind.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Joel Goldberg 0:00
Welcome back everyone to another episode of Rounding the Bases, presented by Community America Credit Union: Invested in You. We are heading into summer here. I guess you know we're about there, right? This is coming out in June, and time flies, as it always does. But this podcast, we keep on going every single week in or out of baseball season, with the support of Community America as well as my friends at Chief of Staff Kansas City. Whether you're in Kansas City like me, or, say, on the east coast like my guest today, or anywhere for that matter, Chief of Staff, not just Kansas City, but an incredible company.If you're looking for a job, if you're looking to hire someone, if you're looking just for a great resource and an energetic office, I love to partner up with them. So check them out. Chiefofstaffkc.com. Making Connections That Matter. I've got a great connection today, as I always do here on this podcast. Great leadership doesn't come with a playbook. Instead, there are people like today's guests who have lived,learned and made it their mission to help others keep the line moving. My guest's name is Chris Gargano, an award winning pro-sports content veteran who spent more than 20 years connecting with fans from coast to coast. Now he's a podcast host and founder of The Gargano Leadership Group, where teams and business influencers alike learn to navigate the complexities of taking action and secure an advantage that is bigger than themselves. I am happy right now to be joined by the aforementioned Chris Gargano, Chris, how are you?
Chris Gargano 1:58
Great, Joel. Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun. It's great to see you again. You are a wonderful guest on my podcast. I really appreciate it.
Joel Goldberg 2:06
I knew you were a sports guy when we talked about, I think you did the reference, if you hadn't, I would have. When you talked about a home and home, right? And so, so in sports terms, it's we see we see those now more so I guess in in basketball and hockey, where you play one night in one place and then the other in the next. We had a we had a few months in between. This might be more like baseball. We had a few months in between, facing each other with the home and home, or facing each other's questions, I guess. But that's how I knew that you you were a sports guy that had been around a long time doing this just just like me. I want to start there. I mean, you know, you pivoted in your professional life, but a lot of years in sports and before we talk about the impact and how that shaped you, because I think there'll probably be a lot of similarities between you and I, tell me about the the sports background as those that are listening, you could see it on YouTube too, but those that are listening will see a a bevy of Emmy's over each of your shoulders, which means that you did this for a long time. Tell me about your sports background.
Chris Gargano 3:07
So, Joel, yeah, thank you again for having me. So I played baseball my whole childhood, right? And a little bit of football. And through that love, I just loved the process of baseball. So from that, I went, played a little bit in college, but then soon realized, Joel, like some of us, that it's very difficult to become a professional baseball player. So I had a mutual love of storytelling, so I made that my career. Literally, Joel, the day I stopped playing college baseball, the next day I was in the college radio station. I started writing for the paper, and just fell in love with the storytelling, staying close to it. And then, so the first part of my career, you know, I'm condensing 35 years into a few minutes 90 seconds, because that's what we do, Joel. Which is, this is that I got some internships in San Francisco while still in college, and then all of a sudden I said, You know what? This is what I want to do. So my first 12 years, I was a sports reporter anchor all over the country. In seven different states. It was amazing covering NBA and Major League Baseball, college football, everything. I just, individual contributors, like, you know, golfers and tennis players and amazing. And I just learned so much and fell in love with that. And then it dovetailed into overseeing content departments and professional sports. I got recommended for the Oakland Raiders in charge of their content department, which I loved. Spent six years there, eight years at the San Francisco Giants, and then seven, most recently at the New York Jets. So that's my sports background, and that's, you know, where you saw the awards. It's those are group efforts, and that's what every time I look at them, it's like, those are the people that I did this with, and we were lucky to be recognized, but that's it in a nutshell. Joel, it's that love of storytelling and staying close to sports, which I love.
Joel Goldberg 4:49
You know what? I want to dive into this because I think it's interesting for people that aren't in our profession or with our background. For a couple of reasons, at least what I've learned is One. And most people, if they're a sports fan, they, they don't really know what, what our world is like, but they, they probably, in some form or another, wanted to be in it, right, as as an athlete, as a reporter. But it's not a normal existence. And it part it's not normal because there just aren't that many of those jobs out there. And so it's, it's a limited amount of people. And you know, I've been lucky enough to do it for 30 years. You've been lucky enough to have been had it be part of your life for for so many years. There are a lot of similarities that I think work in the world of business and leadership, that lessons that we've learned. But I'm just curious, for you, like for me, I got into it because I love to talk about sports. That was it. And it and it just seemed like it'd be the coolest thing to do. And guess what it was, it is, but that's so barely scratching the surface, like there's so much more to it that a teenager or that a 22 year old getting out of college could never have understood. It was just my dream to do this. And the beauty of, I guess, the journey, not to be too melodramatic about it, is all the lessons that have been learned along the way and the connections that have been made. You can't possibly know that when you get in, it's just truly an innocent, pure love of sports. I'm guessing that was the case for you as well, beyond the realization that that that baseball career was going to have an end, and everybody faces that reality at a certain point, more at your stage of the game, or maybe at my stage of the game, which was well before college. And then it's okay, then what? Oh, wait, I could go talk about this, and someone's going to pay me to go to games. Sign me up. Was that sort of where you were at too?
Chris Gargano 6:38
Yes. And here I'll even take it more narrow, which is, and then I you know Joel, as they say, as Steve Jobs says, you connect the dots, perhaps as you get older and you see things more clearly, I will say that I love the process. I loved watching elite athletes, or any athletes, for that matter, and how they approached the task. How, if it was a bowler, like what was in their mind? Why did they gravitate towards bowling? I was just I have this curiosity. And if you marry what you really are about, which is an intense curiosity for life, learning and everything, and then you take that and put it to your vocation, which, in my sense, what you just said, you're talking about sports, mine was, it's the same, but storytelling like, what is that story? I would be fascinated like how a shortstop got rid of the ball so quickly, or a quarterback was able to read the defense I was, you know? Yeah, fine, they won 34 to 10. That's not as interesting to me. I want to know what it was like in the huddle. I want to know the relationship between the quarterback and the quarterback coach, what were the conversations in the meeting room that interests me? You know, I love the the wins and losses. That's cool, but I love the process and how people think and how they interact with one another. And getting to that elite level is very interesting to me. So I made a career out of it, as you did.
Joel Goldberg 8:02
Yeah, you know, I think that, first off, we're all storytellers. Some of us are better storytellers, some of us are worse storytellers, but like that, that is one thing we all have in common, right? I mean, it's gone on since the beginning of time, since the cavemen. We are all storytellers, and whether we want to be or not, and some of us do it for a living, and and others look I mean, it might be telling your own story and looking for a job. It might be promoting someone, whatever it is, there is an art to storytelling. And again, kind of going back, I didn't know what that was. I mean, we if, if you go to journalism school, or you studied to be a broadcaster. You studied this type of stuff. You know, you learn a lot of the right ways to do things which, you know, how to ask, the proper way to ask questions, and how to find sources, these type of things. But I don't, they never really taught me about, I don't know if they really taught the art of storytelling, the nuance to it. They taught on the TV side how to edit effectively and tell that story. They taught how to write more effectively. And those were all very important, but I don't think I fully understood the power of storytelling and the nuance behind it until I understood how to build the relationships, which then opened up the doors of people being more vulnerable and sharing those stories and then having access that maybe others didn't have. What was that process? Because I I find the process, the process and all of it, really fascinating. Not just how, how the shortstop is able to make a play that nobody's ever seen before, right? It's sort of like the How does Steph Curry do what he does? Well, it's ridiculous amounts of talent better than anyone, but what about the vision and the creativity? Right? So there's so much to the process, but I think there's process too, just in the way we build these relationships and the trust that is built. What do you think?
Chris Gargano 9:54
Absolutely. And that's twofold. So when I was in traditional media, working for TV stations, right? And understanding those relationships, they're a little bit, you know, I don't want to say surface level, but they're, you know, I'm not in the organization right, that I'm covering, or the university, or whatever the case may be, so the connection has to happen quickly. And I would do that, Joel, I would do that and say again, say I was out covering a golfer, and they have to trust me. I am going to tell a story that in back in those days before social media, that's going to be seen by an audience, and I have a responsibility to portray that individual accurately and get to the core of it. So you how do you do that within 35-40 minutes, or however much time you have? And it's caring about the answer, listening to the person, finding the nuance. If there is in front of the media a lot, right? They have answers that they give all the time that never did it for me. I always wanted to know the difference, the core, the slight detail that I could ask, wait, I saw you, you know, and you were, you were working on your seven iron a little bit more than you were your six or the driver. Why? Well, because the seven iron, and then you get those answers. That's a different question, right? Than, hey, you know, you scored a 64 last week. So I would always look for angles and then dovetailing into working for organizations. Then you have longer relationships you're in the organization. So that's a different responsibility. That's really getting to know people and not being, you know, transactional all the day. Hey, can we get this? Hey, can we get no, no, Hey. How's it going? You know, let's walk to the bus together. Let's, you know, how's, how's everything? Sit down for lunch if the case presented itself. So, yes, connections and relationships, and not for just getting something from folks, but caring about them and working with them. Joel, working with them.
Joel Goldberg 11:39
So I want to, I want to jump forward to to your your work right now, which is a lot of things, and then it's very common, I think, for you know, people in our sort of age range, where you start veering off into other things. I mean, I've had this TV job still for 30 years. I still have it, but yet the other six months plus in season is about the podcast, and it's about the speaking business and leadership, and all of this that, quite frankly, has has led to fulfillment that I never expected, and opportunity that I never expected. And I think, and I'm just, I see so many parallels between between our careers that I think for me, when the light bulb went off, it was like, Oh, wait, there's something else out there besides TV. In my case, I'm really lucky that I get to do both. But you know, TV won't last forever. I think the speaking and all the rest of it, if I'm in Okay, health can last forever. If you know, you got to stay relevant and connections and relationships and everything like that. What? How did you get to what you're doing right now? And it's a lot of different things, you know, podcast host, and you've you, you've got the Gargano Leadership Group and an adjunct professor in New York City. I can't imagine that any of these are things that you were thinking about when you're knee deep with the with, with the New York Jets or, or your earlier sports jobs.
Chris Gargano 13:09
Great question. I appreciate you asking it. So when I was with the San Francisco Giants, we were winning World Series. And, sorry.
Joel Goldberg 13:16
Yeah, I was at one of them.
Chris Gargano 13:19
Sorry.
Joel Goldberg 13:20
Welll, you know, it was the every other year thing. It was destiny, right?
Chris Gargano 13:23
Right. In 2014 against the Royals. And I apol-, but no, it was anyway. So the job was getting complex, right? There was a lot of demand on our department, and I was noticing, my goodness, this is incredibly cool, but we have to keep this machine running. So to keep the machine the content department that I was overseeing. I wanted to get better. I wanted to be a better leader. It's that simple. I wasn't the greatest baseball player in the world, but I worked my tail off. If you call anyone right now or text anyone from my childhood, they will say that. That the guy loved it, and he worked hard and tried to get the most out of my ability, which, you know, it was I had a little bit, but I, you know, tried to make it the best. So that's the same approach I took to leadership. Joel, and I went back and got a master's degree at 46-47 I don't remember how old I was. It was nine years ago, so whatever. I'm not good at math anyway, Joel. So I, that was, the moment when I walked into that classroom for the first time at my alma mater, St. Mary's College of California, my life changed. And I just it was I for those two plus years, or whatever years, almost two years, being in that cohort, learning from those professors at that time in my life changed everything. I became, I was, I didn't realize this, but I became a student of leadership, not just for me, but helping others see their journeys better. And this is I didn't even I was the people. Joel, I'll put it to you this way. So as you said, I teach at NYU. Some students talk all the time in class. Some are sometimes and some don't. When I was a student at this stage in my life, the professors, I had to control myself to make room for others. I was so into it, I could have answered every question. I wanted to learn. I wanted to know what that person thought and that person thought. So that curiosity, as we talked about earlier, now, is was leadership, and I was seeing tangible results. You have to ask the people that I led, but I think I was getting better, and I was seeing things differently, and I was listening better, I was collaborating, I was more compassionate as a leader. Then I got the job with The Jets, and I was putting all of that into action. And, you know, and I have these close relationships with people from The Giants, San Francisco Giants and New York Jets as a result of just seeing myself better. And that's what triggered Joel, the business that I'm in now. I said, I love this so much learning and sharing and eventually teaching. And I started at NYU in 2018 this is just feels right, and this is just taking over my being right? It's like, I want to learn research, share, learn research, teach, and that's just where I am and what I'm doing. And it's amazing. It's a great, great feeling to do this all the time,
Joel Goldberg 16:10
See, and I think that's something. You and I are around the same age Gen X, but it doesn't matter whether you're a millennial or whatever age you're at, there's gonna come a certain point where, at least for me, I think we start seeing meaning and purpose in a little bit of a different way. And it sounds to me like that came for you right when you walked into that classroom. For me, it came when I started my speaking business, but I didn't know that that was what was going to happen. For me, it was just like, hey, this seems like an opportunity, and let's see if it's something I can do. And then it was like, Oh my gosh, there's so much more to learn and so much out there, and so much fulfillment in all of this. What were your expectations when you walked into that classroom? Because it sounds like you got more than what you were signing up for, what you what you were expecting.
Chris Gargano 18:33
What a great question, Joel. What a great question. Exactly, I had no idea. I just, I had that here's so you had going into the program, the the Masters in Leadership Studies. That's what the degree is in the master's degree. And so in the process, you go through a, you know, they, they talk to you that, like the recruiting call. I remember where I was sitting. I remember his name is Doug Paxton, an amazing individual. I remember the tone of his voice, this is before walking in, but I'll get to your question exactly. And I remember thinking the way he was talking about leadership was exactly what I needed as a human being at that time, not knowing what to expect. And then the first class, which I also remember, where I was sitting, who I was sitting by, those big moments in your life you do remember. And I remember thinking, Joel, I don't know where this is going, but this is what I need to be doing right now. As we were journaling, and I still have the notebook, as we're journaling that first session, I'm thinking, This is amazing. I can't figure out why I love this so much. But, and I was a very average, let's just say undergrad student from 18 to 22 right? I got better as I went, but I had a rough start, and trying to work with baseball and all that. So needless to say, I was a okay learner, but I could have been better. And I tell my students at NYU all the time, I'm very transparent about that, but as an advanced learner, I was pretty, pretty good. I was really into it, and I read every word and wrote everything and and I it didn't come till I got finished with it where I could take it from a business standpoint. But that came pretty quick. That came, you know, maybe two, three years later, I said, Wow, this isn't going away. I'm reading all these books, I'm listening to all these podcasts. I've become an intense student of leadership.
Joel Goldberg 20:23
Which is cool, right? I mean, it's, it's, I've always said I'll never go back to school. I don't know, maybe I would, but I can't, you know, and I've spoken to, you know, different programs and Executive MBA programs, things like that. And I'm just, I'm always so I just admire the amount of time and work ethic, because you can't skate through that like you do in undergrad, right? And not saying I skated through anything in undergrad, it doesn't matter anymore. We're talking well over 30 years ago, but I knew what I needed to do. And you know, you could, you could get by, but I the workload for that. So to make that commitment, and then to get that bug, and then they turn it into teaching, you know, I mean, you've got your consultancy, but you're also teaching and and the podcast, and you're speaking. And I don't, I don't know the answer to this, but, you know, I get asked it sometimes, like I'll get asked some version of, if you had to choose between your broadcasting job in baseball or your speaking career? Which one would you choose first? And you know, those are fun hypotheticals. Maybe they're not always fun, and my answer always is, well, to this point, I don't have to choose, and I don't want to choose. Now, when given the choice of a game versus a speech, I will take the game every single time, even though the speech might be financially more lucrative, because you know what, I show up for every game, and I would like to continue showing up for every game. And so that becomes the priority. But to me, Hey, I want to do both. But you do when you have that many things going on, you do have to prioritize sometimes, right? So for me, it's like, all right, this is when the games are for six months a year, and then you fill in around it. And it's a little harder during baseball season for you, you're getting pulled in a lot of directions. I would imagine that that any of the classes that you're teaching that's probably non-negotiable once that's on the calendar, and then you book start to book around that. What are, how are the priorities? Or is there anything that you love more than anything else? Or do you love it all? Because it's there's a lot going on for you, which is something that I could relate to.
Chris Gargano 22:29
So great. Another one, I love it. So in the classroom with the NYU students, I absolutely love. It is, I just absolutely love the exchange and how we cultivate our class and the, literally, the culture of the class and our learning environment. Love it. And that's very similar to workshops that I do with clients, right? Six, people, 15-25, whatever the case. It's that sharing and learning in the and that you could see the light bulbs going off and people, you know, playing off one another. Yeah, that was cool. That little activity we did, or that that, you know, the way you presented this is allowing me to think about this for myself, and that is useful. And then you get emails or texts on the back end saying, that was very impactful. And then the podcast, Joel, as you mentioned, I love doing that. I love learning about people. I love listening to them. I love their their stories, and I get criticized a little bit on the podcast because I don't sit and talk enough about me. And so I'm trying to figure that out. But that's our DNA, right? It's about the other person.
Joel Goldberg 23:32
Yeah.
Chris Gargano 23:33
It's about their story. And that's a that's a thing I'll either work out or I won't, you know, it'll either continue. I want to listen to, you know, people that are giving me constructive feedback, but I also like to be selfless in the nature that highlights you or highlights them. So it's all a I'm still learning, Joel, I am still learning. I'm learning the business I'm in. I'm learning how to best market. I'm learning the but where I'm dialed in to answer your questions when I'm with people, I am prepared, researched and ready to go, and hopefully they'll say that, yeah, that guy made me think differently, or impacted me in a way that I could be useful tomorrow or the next week or in that meeting. You know?
Joel Goldberg 24:10
You know what's been interesting for me, and it sounds like we're on a similar path with this, is that I really struggled with the whole making it about me piece too, which I think for for some people that are listening, they may say, Well, wait a minute, you're in the spotlight all the time. Of course, it's about you. Now, if you look at most of what I do, what you did, you know, during your broadcast days, it's telling other people's stories. And so if, like, in my case, if you come up in a news background, you know, unless you're like, I don't know, maybe like, you know, the wacky morning show, you know, host or personality, or, you know, maybe like the morning weather person, but like, for the most part of you're working in a news background. It's not about you. There are certain great persons. Personalities like you know, our color commentator in baseball, Rex Huddler, will always say, hey, it's about the game, and he sincerely means that. But he's such a great storyteller and such a character that he is part of the story always, and people love that. But I think that there's something that's true for all of us with that, but when we've been raised a certain way in the business that I think you were and I was you've been trained to not make it about you, even while you're in the spotlight. And what I've come to learn in recent years and also still learning is I had a lot of people along the way, saying you need to be more vulnerable when you're on stage, you need to be more vulnerable in your book writing, you need to tell your story, and you need to open up a little bit more. And I knew that was the case. It just didn't feel right until it did, and it started to feel right when I realized that the reactions I was getting by being more vulnerable were better reactions. That people seem to be more moved by it. People could relate to me more, instead of just being some guy that was talking about everyone else. And that's a hard place to get to. And it sounds like you're working on that too. I mean, that vulnerability piece is hard because I think it, and I think it's it could feel like you're being selfish just talking about yourself, but really, what I'm starting to learn is it could be selfless, because it helps other people. And so why would you hold that back? If it's something that can inspire and help others? Where are you at with that journey?
Chris Gargano 26:39
Wow.
Joel Goldberg 26:41
Sorry to go so deep.
Chris Gargano 26:42
No, I love it. I absolutely love it. Privately meaning, like things that are not public, I'm extremely vulnerable. In other words, in my classroom, workshops, one on one, my clients, in that regard, very vulnerable. Publicly, not so much, because it goes to that adage, not and you said, you said something that I would want to bring out here. You said we were raised in the business to make it about other people. Well, I could take that even more. I was raised to not make it about myself. You know, I'm, I have wonderful parents and family, and we just don't do that, you know, we just, it's just, we're, you know, there's a modesty to that, but, but I get, I agree with you, Joel, I agree with you that that vulnerability and that sharing helps people see themselves in you and what you have overcome. And I have stories of failure and stories of success and everything in between, and I enjoy. I'm comfortable being vulnerable, very comfortable. I think you could tell by my, by my nature, I just it, just, I just that self selfishness. I just, it's, I'm working on it. You could see, it's a, it's an it's an issue, and I'm trying to figure out, you know, did Chris post this post that? Yeah, but everybody else is doing fine. I don't need to do that, you know what I mean?
Joel Goldberg 27:56
I'm so there with you.
Chris Gargano 27:58
Yeah? I just, I just, was not raised that way. But, you know, to have a successful business, to some degree, attention is the thing I am being I'll be vulnerable now. I am a work in progress with this. I want to deliver great work, be recognized for that work, to be recommended for other work. But as far as, like, telling everybody, I just, it's literally, yeah, you know, I'm I'm fading here. I'm fading on it.
Joel Goldberg 28:21
Yeah, I remember when I started in this and then, and then I hired someone to do some of my marketing and and the deal that we basically made is she did a great job, but it was basically, she basically said to me, let me do the talking about you. And even though it was my voice, she's like, I mean, I basically said to myself, just turn the other way and don't look. You know, like, I want to make sure everything that's being said it sounds right, and I'm going to prove it. And then I just don't really want to see it, because it just doesn't feel right until it did right. And then it's like, Wait a minute. How come everybody else is allowed to do this and we're not giving ourselves permission for it, and so that's, yes, that's the way you were raised. Personally, same for me, in a business standpoint. And it's, you know, it's just, it's like, the equivalent of listening to your voice on an answering machine. You know, back in the day when there were answering machines, was like, I don't I sound like that. Now, being on TV for as many years as I have, I know what I sound like. It's just normal. But it just, it just, it does. It doesn't feel right. So anyway, I want to move on to my baseball theme questions for, in this case, a baseball guy, but, you know, they're not really baseball questions. So in your long career, and a career that has had an incredible pivot, what's the biggest home run you fit?
Chris Gargano 29:36
It's that master's degree. Joel, I can't, I know, I we've talked about it, but it's, it's going back and and being, becoming a student at that stage in my life, and I'm not recommending that. Not everybody wants to do that. You said you have thought about it. There's other people, but that continuous learning just changed everything. Everything. My worldview, how I see, you know, society. How I see politics. How I see sports. It's just, it was a gift. So making that decision was the second best decision I've ever made, next to marrying my wife.
Joel Goldberg 30:07
Joel, yes, yes. Well, that's always everybody's first, by the way, which, which I learned early in this podcast that I had to say professionally speaking, unless you know your wife is your business partner or something like that, because everybody was saying their their wife or their husband. I'm like, which is great. I hope everybody says that. Um, but you can do both, right? And so congratulations on both. How about, she's not allowed to be in this one, I hope. But how about a swing and a miss? And what you learned from it along the way?
Chris Gargano 30:33
Oh this a great question. So, all right. So as a leader in professional sports for those 21 years, there wasn't, there's not one thing I think about, you know, that is that monumental elephant in the room, failure. There's been many, let's be clear about that. But when you, when I, when you ask me this question, I here's what I think of they're micro failures. So it's or swing and misses. Let's stay in the baseball right? So you, have someone who reports to you. They come into your office on a Tuesday afternoon and they have a question for you, and you're thinking, wow, this is a heavier one. How am I going to respond? This is in real time, right? And you're thinking, you're listening, you're watching their body language, and you you give them what you think they want, and you see, okay, that from their facial reaction and their or the words that they're using. You say, I probably hit I'm staying in baseball here. I probably grounded to third on that and threw across the diamond. I'm out. I did not say the right thing. I did not do the right thing. They're going to leave that office feeling either as they did when they came in, or a little bit worse. That's not good. So those, those things, Joel, eat at me, right? Ate at me when I was in those positions, right? I wanted to deliver that home run every single time. But, you know, in leadership, you can't, in life, you can't hit a home run every time. So that's one of the many reasons that master's degree, going back to the first answer, was so valuable that I got, I think I got it, and you have to ask the people, but a little bit more awareness to make them feel like, oh, we can do this, and I can do this in my in my comp. You know what I'm saying? I just got I think better. So the swing and misses are, was I when I was not where I wanted to be, right and not the leader that I wanted to be in those small moments. Because life is a series of small moments. It's not always those grandiose failures or successes. So that's how I would answer that.
Joel Goldberg 32:26
Yep, I love that. Really good stuff. And yeah, life is a series of failures. That's why I like baseball so much. It's a sport of failure. And you know what moment really is? Is that big? I mean, you're going to swing and miss on something every single day. It's some of these guys. Sometimes may, may have a 3, 4, 5 strikeout day. So the last of the baseball theme questions is small ball. You're familiar with that in baseball terms. I just saw one recently, the perfect execution of small ball scoring a run to ultimately win a game without getting a hit in the inning and a runner on second base with no outs and extra innings and a nice, simple ground ball to the second baseman to advance the runner to third and then sacrifice fly to knock him in. But the guy that makes the out gets no credit for it, gets a hero's welcome in the dugout. Even though, statistically, he's never going to get any credit whatsoever, a lot of respect for doing the right thing in the moment. Thats small ball in baseball. I don't need to tell you that, but I wanted to be able to share that story, because it was the moment I saw it. I'm like, this is the way it's supposed to go. What are the little things for you? What is small ball to you in the real world?
Chris Gargano 33:35
Consistency Joel. Every time I walk into those classes at NYU or in my workshops, or an individual client, or whatever my deliverable is on that day. Consistency, that does not mean being the same all the time, just not variations of a different person, right? In other words, let me dial into what we're doing here today, and that as you know, Joel, as you get older, you get a little, hopefully, get a little bit better at being present and understanding. Okay, listen, I know I'm not having a great day, but they may not be having a great day. Some of the students might be stressed out about finals, but I have to be there for them, so I'm going to give them a consistent version of myself, genuine. I'll say, hey, you know, back to the transparency. Hey guys, you know, great to see everybody today. You know, I was a little bit late, you know, I had a little bit of traffic, or I'm a little tired today, but here, here we go, right? That's like energy, enthusiasm, controlling my attitude. And that all comes into consistency, again, not being disingenuous, if something's on my mind here, here's what we got, here's where we're going. All right, let's do it together today. I need a little bit more from you today for this reason. And you're smiling and you're bringing people in, and so that's what I would I worked on and learned how to do. And it's taken, you know, here's what it comes down to, Joel. It's this, the question, you know, the little things. It's, it's that kind of similar to what we were talking about about, you know, marketing and being out there. It's leadership is not about you, it's about the people that you're serving. The leadership is about them. And if you have that, you know, like when you're giving a talk or whatever, and you have that in service mentality, you can be more consistent because you're doing things for other people. And I just, I enjoy doing that.
Joel Goldberg 35:27
Good stuff, great stuff. Love it all, and agree with it all. Our four final questions as we round the basis, I want to, I want to dig into a little bit more of of your services. And the Gargano Leadership Group, garganoleadership.com is is the website, so we'll have that in the show notes. And there's one section of your website. It says, what type of leader do you want to be? GLG, Gargano leadership groups, coaching, consulting and workshops all center around our four leadership pillars, curiosity, alignment, optimism and self awareness. So I wanted to talk about some of those pillars, beginning with curiosity, is my first question, because I decided that that was going to be my word of 2025. I'm not a I've said this a bunch of times now on the podcast this year. I'm not a resolution New Year's resolution guy, because I equate the word resolution with something you only do in January or for a limited amount of time. But I thought a word of the year is something that I can focus on for the year, and hopefully it creates better habits. And I thought curiosity was my word of the year, because as long as you do so, and you know what, I'll attach one of the other pillars that you have in there, self awareness, as long as you have curiosity with self awareness, meaning at the right time, not bothering people and slowing people, if you get too curious, too curious, well, then curiosity kills the cat, right? And then you're annoying, and people are running away from you, and it's harder to build the relationships that you you talk so much about, and that I talk so much about, so tell me about the benefits of curiosity. To me, the best storytellers are curious. The best leaders are curious. What's your take?
Chris Gargano 37:03
So, right. So you just drill down on the practical nature of what all of us would think curiosity, how it manifests itself, which is question, asking questions, right? I understand that, of course, that's part of it. But having a curious nature, like an open minded nature, like when you walk into a meeting, not being what am I going to say? Here's what I'm going to say. I want to be the smartest person in the room. I want to come across this way that's not curious. Curious is listening. Curious is a good and you brought up the other pillar, which is self awareness. How what's my body language? We talk about this in class all the time, you know. And Joel, I think you and I talked about it when you were on my podcast, whether on it or off, which is, you know, body language is so powerful, you know, how do you walk up, to baseball,how do you walk up to the plate? How do you, you know, go visit a guy on the mound. All of this matters, and being curious and open minded, like, Okay, I'm going to find out what the pitcher has to say, or in or in business, I'm going to go into this meeting open minded to what people are saying and thinking and gleaning that information, and then I could talk. You know, when appropriate, that's curious to me. It's not always, Hey, why did you do that? What did you do that? That's part of it, but that's, you know, that's a little bit. Let's call it level one. Level five is all of those things. How am I listening to Joel today? Am I watching his body language? Because that Joel, that goes back to the first part of our conversation as a reporter, which I came up in the business. That's information. Yes, you mentioned Steph Curry, right? How does Steph Curry? How? What's his mood today? They play the Mavericks later. What? How is he today? Is he at ease? Is he tense? Does he did he, you know, go through his normal pre shot routine and practice today at the shoot around that morning? Hmm, that's interesting. You know, kind of taking all that's curiosity to me, hopefully that answered your question that fires me up.
Joel Goldberg 38:58
Yeah me too. It's well, I it's something that was never taught. I'm glad you're teaching it, because I think you can get so far by not being the person that others find annoying or in the way, like you might have the greatest relationship with Steph Curry or fill in the blank athlete or boss or whoever it is. But if you start to in their minds, if you start to become the person that is in the way of them doing what they need to do, or they're having to deal with you on a day where they don't have the energy to do that, then you lose some equity there. And over time, that builds and builds and builds positive or negative. They may not remember the positive as much, but they remember the negative, and that makes them push themselves away a little bit. Okay, the other pillars, I think optimism, we have a general I'm not, I don't mean to poo poo that and make it sound like it's, it's obvious, but I want to talk about alignment, and what you mean by that, and why that's important.
Chris Gargano 39:53
Okay, so we have a story that we tell ourselves Joel, right? We wake up and we think, Okay, here's where we're going. Here's what I think. Is important. Here are my values. Here is what I stand for. So my alignment, when I get people to uncover that, talk about that, think about that. Write down your values. Why do you Why are those important to you? Here's why they're important to me. Here. Okay, how do they apply to your business? Okay, here's how they apply to my business. It's when people get in trouble, per se, is when those values that they've declared, they're in alignment, they feel good, they go and then all of a sudden, a tough situation at work happens where they have to make a decision, and those values are challenged. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Right? Are you going to make the easy decision? Are you going to take a stand? Are you going to, you know, believe here's why I believe it, here's where we're going. And can you verbalize that? Like the difficult conversations when you're in alignment, when your values equal how your behavior is, how you are as a professional and personal and everything is aligned, you can have difficult conversations easier because you know what you stand for. Example. My value is, I'm being hypothetical here, my value is that I'm going to be open minded in my approach. I'm a, you know, a coordinator at an organization, and I'm going to be open minded and a consistent learner, and I'm going into a situation, and then, oh, all of a sudden, somebody's challenging me on that. How am I going to say that? Well, part of my other value is I'm a good listener, so I'm open minded. I'm a good listener, but they're challenging me. Well, you have to stop and say, Okay, what do you mean here? Let me understand you better. You're putting that into action. Yeah, let's have a conversation. I'll listen to you. You listen to me. Joel, last part on this, sometimes people will say, about difficult conversations, I have a situation. Here's what they'll say. I have a situation at work. I need to have a difficult conversation with this person. I need to tell them that they are coming late to work too often. And here's how that's disruptive. It causes other people to not see that we're all committed at the same level, I and I, and they'll be telling me, but I really need them tell them, you know, to how this impacts other people. What should I say? And I tell them, you just said it. That's perfect. It's perfect. You're aligned with why it's important, how you're going to say it and how you're going to deliver it. It sounds perfect. You have your reasons, your values. You want other people to see that that they respect. You know, the time in which we all have to be here today as an example. Just say that, and they look and they go, you're right. Okay, you just said it beautifully. It's so we could get into detail on this, but that's what alignment is. It's like knowing your values, why you think something, something, and being able to communicate it clearly.
Joel Goldberg 42:41
All right. Third question as we round the bases, you got a chance to work for some of these incredible teams, and, and I always laugh, like, you know, I mean, I went from the St Louis Cardinals to the Kansas City Royals. And then a lot of sports fans are like, Why would you go there? The Royals aren't any good and, and, haha, last laugh. Royals won the World Series in 15 but, but really, it was never about that. Like, I'm just, I'm joking with that, because what I think sports fans, for the most part, they're just thinking as fans, which, which, of course, you know that that's the beauty of fandom, and oftentimes irrational and emotional, and it's an escape from life, and that's what it's supposed to be for those of us in the business. It's work, and I think that you learn how to separate that to me, and so, you know, you work for the Jets. Nobody ever says anything good about the Jets. Yet I'm sure your experience there was incredible, and almost everybody would have loved to have traded spots with you, too. What did what did you learn working for NFL teams like that, where, again, there are only so many of those spots in the world, and it, at least for me, I always look at it as a privilege.
Chris Gargano 43:41
Oh my gosh. What did I learn? Is the question. Oh my you know how complex it is, how the business somebody asked me yesterday, you know, what is the difference between the football because the NFL drafted when we're taping, is going on, right? Is what's the difference between the football side and the business side? Does one have anything to do with the other to the overall success. And I looked at them, and I said, Absolutely, the CFO is the CFO for everything. The owner is the owner of everything. The President, well, sometimes there's division and President here, President there, but they talk all the time. There has to be a cohesive culture that comes together so you can win in business, ticket sales, merchandise, sponsorships, content, and you can win on the football or baseball field, but you talked about football, right? So what I learned is that that alignment, right? The stories they're telling each other, the values that they have, the more that that is cohesive, and there's communication, clear communication, the better the organization will be and there are some teams that are organizations that are really good at it, some that are okay, and some that struggle, that they're trying to figure it out. How do we get to that? You know, listen, we're aligned. Here's our here are our values. Here's how we deal with hardship, here's how we deal with success. And can go forward together. And that's just constant, constant communication. So I learned through all the three organizations that I worked with that the more effective you can communicate, the more successful you will be, both in business and on the field.
Joel Goldberg 45:12
Okay, we've got a couple minutes left. Here's the walk off. This is the big one, because I was thinking about this is on your website says, get to know people managers who are rated highest on balancing relationships with the results, saw 62% of their employees willing to give extra effort and only 3% quietly quitting. That's from the Harvard Business Review and and you talk so much about relationships, you are teaching a generation of kids that have come up through different circumstances than we did in a pandemic in social media and the world and everybody all Gen Z, they can't do they don't know how to do that. First of all, I think there's a lane for them, if they can learn how to build relationships, to to raise above a lot of their peers. But there's also, we're not going back in time. This is where we're at in the world too. What's real quick, what's the biggest challenge for the younger generation right now in building those relationships.
Chris Gargano 46:03
So they tell me that exactly what you just said. They tell me that their number one concern in class and in workshops is that is developing connections. Joel, it's just being aware of it, right?
Joel Goldberg 46:14
Yes.
Chris Gargano 46:15
People say, like, what is the next generation? They are amazing.
Joel Goldberg 46:19
Agree.
Chris Gargano 46:19
My students are amazing, and the young professionals that I am so fortunate to work with are amazing. They're great learners. They're sophisticated. They look you in the eye. Everything is dialed in. Now, is that all of them? No, but is that all in our generation? Heck no. So my point is that I don't think we have to worry. From my point of view, I'm one person. I tell them that in class all the time, but they're just, I just have just have a warmth when I think of the students that I'm fortunate to work with. So my to answer your question. They have to work on it. They have to make a conscious decision. You know, you could walk around, I say this all the time. I sound old. I don't care. You could walk around Fifth Avenue or in and around campus or in the buildings and put the headphones on or look down at your phone. That's your choice. That's yours, your your understanding of how you want to conduct your lives. But that would you say, I don't have connections, or I'm uncomfortable talking to strangers and such? Well, the world is your oyster, as they say, right? So you can go to the coffee shop and say, Hey, how's it going today, or do is that as societal norms nowadays? No, but it still goes on, and it's still interesting to learn about people and drum hey, let's have a conversation, or whatever. However you do it that gets you. It's just Joel. It's like anything else. It's reps. It's reps of an uncomfortable conversation, absolutely. But the more you do it, and the more you you're giving joy to somebody, or you're having an interaction that you remember, you never know who you're going to meet, and when you're shut off like that, you're not going to meet anyone. You might DM some cool person along with that's cool. That's a way of meeting someone. But the the way to get better at connection, which they tell me they want to do is to practice, in my opinion,
Joel Goldberg 48:03
And it's not easy. It's not comfortable, but you do it once and twice the reps. I tell people all the time, it's everything. Everything is about reps. It's all batting practice over and over again. It's not all supposed to be exciting, and that's how you get comfortable. That's what, why you don't get nervous in front of a television camera? No, I've done it a million times, but I used to be. It became more comfortable. So life lessons there. I want to encourage everybody to check out Chris's website to see more about his services. You can certainly book free consultation with him. I highly recommend garganoleadership.com. garganoleadership.com we'll have the website, the information in the show notes. Also, he's got a great podcast too, and and a good baseball term in that one, Keep the Line Moving right?
Chris Gargano 48:47
Yep.
Joel Goldberg 48:48
So that's a great baseball term. We use that one all the time. Chris, thanks so much. Shout out to Damon Lembi for introducing us, and he's been on my show, and vice versa. And I think all the same for you guys as well. Another good baseball guy too. Chris, really appreciate it. Thanks for spending time today.
Chris Gargano 49:02
Joel, thank you so much. This was so much fun. Jeez, I really appreciate it. Thank you.